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Forced Checkmate vs Time Out

Hello everyone! I was wondering about this strange position that I cooked up. Consider this position:

https://lichess.org/nVXEUYtv

Basically, white has the only pieces: Rook on b1, King on c1 and pawn on b2, whereas black has the only pieces: King on a8, rooks on b8 and d8, and pawns on b7 and b3. That's it, no other pieces. Suppose that it is white's turn to move, and before he could make his move, he runs out of time. My question is, what should be the decision of the game? Defeat, Draw, or Victory for white?

Article 9.6 of the FIDE rules states: "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game." This rule makes me think that the decision will probably be a draw, but there is an important point to note:

The basic philosophy behind the rule stated above, is that IF THE GAME WERE TO CONTINUE (in the hypothetical situation of no time limit), then as long as a victory for my opponent is theoretically possible (even by the most unskilled play by me), I will lose, if my time runs out. This applies, for example, when I have a single bishop and my opponent has a single knight. Now, let us try to apply the same logic on the current position. IF THE GAME WERE TO CONTINUE, then the only legal move for white is Rook a1 (so, he is forced to make this move), and instantly, black gets checkmated. So, IF THE GAME WERE TO CONTINUE, then the only possible outcome is white winning. It is thus different from, for example, the situation that white has 2 queens and black is left with a lone king, in which case, it is theoretically possible for white to be unable to checkmate black even in infinite time and infinite number of moves (that is why, it is logical to declare draw if white runs out of time). But in this situation, no matter how unskilled white is, he is forced to checkmate black in the next move, if he his time did not run out. So, this makes me inclined to think that white should be granted victory.

So, what IS actually the rule in this situation? I tried to play this situation as white vs computer in a 1 min time limit, where I was planning to let my time run out, and see what the decision of the game becomes. But unfortunately, in Lichess, I have to make my first move before time counts down, so I could not carry out this experiment. Could someone help?

Hello everyone! I was wondering about this strange position that I cooked up. Consider this position: https://lichess.org/nVXEUYtv Basically, white has the only pieces: Rook on b1, King on c1 and pawn on b2, whereas black has the only pieces: King on a8, rooks on b8 and d8, and pawns on b7 and b3. That's it, no other pieces. Suppose that it is white's turn to move, and before he could make his move, he runs out of time. My question is, what should be the decision of the game? Defeat, Draw, or Victory for white? Article 9.6 of the FIDE rules states: "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game." This rule makes me think that the decision will probably be a draw, but there is an important point to note: The basic philosophy behind the rule stated above, is that IF THE GAME WERE TO CONTINUE (in the hypothetical situation of no time limit), then as long as a victory for my opponent is theoretically possible (even by the most unskilled play by me), I will lose, if my time runs out. This applies, for example, when I have a single bishop and my opponent has a single knight. Now, let us try to apply the same logic on the current position. IF THE GAME WERE TO CONTINUE, then the only legal move for white is Rook a1 (so, he is forced to make this move), and instantly, black gets checkmated. So, IF THE GAME WERE TO CONTINUE, then the only possible outcome is white winning. It is thus different from, for example, the situation that white has 2 queens and black is left with a lone king, in which case, it is theoretically possible for white to be unable to checkmate black even in infinite time and infinite number of moves (that is why, it is logical to declare draw if white runs out of time). But in this situation, no matter how unskilled white is, he is forced to checkmate black in the next move, if he his time did not run out. So, this makes me inclined to think that white should be granted victory. So, what IS actually the rule in this situation? I tried to play this situation as white vs computer in a 1 min time limit, where I was planning to let my time run out, and see what the decision of the game becomes. But unfortunately, in Lichess, I have to make my first move before time counts down, so I could not carry out this experiment. Could someone help?

I am not 100% sure but I think with 1 minute on the clock the game would be declared a win for black.

I think a player could spot Ra1# in a few seconds so I think it wouldn't be a draw.

BUT the handbook says

"The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."

So it should be a draw then ?

I am not 100% sure but I think with 1 minute on the clock the game would be declared a win for black. I think a player could spot Ra1# in a few seconds so I think it wouldn't be a draw. BUT the handbook says "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game." So it should be a draw then ?

@CHlivelylemon do you mean win for white? It is white to move, and so, it should by no logic be a win for black, right?

@CHlivelylemon do you mean win for white? It is white to move, and so, it should by no logic be a win for black, right?

What don’t you understand citing the correct rule? It is a draw of course.

In chess960 it might be 0-1. 1. 0-0-0 :D

What don’t you understand citing the correct rule? It is a draw of course. In chess960 it might be 0-1. 1. 0-0-0 :D

PS: here at lichess it is 0-1 as well.

PS: here at lichess it is 0-1 as well.

@Sarg0n just to clarify, the result in my picture is after I moved rook to a1, so it is not the result after my time ran out (so, ignore this result). The rule I stated, is not applicable to this situation, since a checkmate is possible for white to deliver (the rule does not say anything about the side delivering checkmate, I guess, although it implicitly refers to a future possible checkmate delivered by the side that did NOT run out of time). Am I missing something?

@Sarg0n just to clarify, the result in my picture is after I moved rook to a1, so it is not the result after my time ran out (so, ignore this result). The rule I stated, is not applicable to this situation, since a checkmate is possible for white to deliver (the rule does not say anything about the side delivering checkmate, I guess, although it implicitly refers to a future possible checkmate delivered by the side that did NOT run out of time). Am I missing something?

There is no rule about a situation where any move checkmates in 1 but they time out. Correct me if wrong. Obviously there are no sets of legal moves which leads to a black checkmate, so it’s a draw.

There is no rule about a situation where any move checkmates in 1 but they time out. Correct me if wrong. Obviously there are no sets of legal moves which leads to a black checkmate, so it’s a draw.

@CalbernandHowbe But why should it be draw then (if there are no rules)? Is it because white runs out of time? I doubt, because the remaining game is a forced line, it does not depend on any choice by either side. I know, its a bit strange to give white victory after he ran out of time, but as long as there is no specific rule prohibiting that, the question is still open, I guess? What is the EXACT correct rule governing this situation?

@CalbernandHowbe But why should it be draw then (if there are no rules)? Is it because white runs out of time? I doubt, because the remaining game is a forced line, it does not depend on any choice by either side. I know, its a bit strange to give white victory after he ran out of time, but as long as there is no specific rule prohibiting that, the question is still open, I guess? What is the EXACT correct rule governing this situation?

@CalbernandHowbe Also, I agree with you that "there are no sets of legal moves which leads to a black checkmate (checkmate delivered by black is what you meant, I guess?)", but that's the problem, is the side delivering the checkmate mentioned in the law?

@CalbernandHowbe Also, I agree with you that "there are no sets of legal moves which leads to a black checkmate (checkmate delivered by black is what you meant, I guess?)", but that's the problem, is the side delivering the checkmate mentioned in the law?

It may seem strange but it’s not up to you it’s up to the rules of chess and I don’t think there is any rule saying that “if checkmate is 100% forced for one side and that one side flags, it is a win for them”.
The rule that says it should be a draw goes by the logic of “it is impossible for black to checkmate by any set of legal moves, so if white times out it is a draw”. The rule is 6.9
"Except where one of Articles 5.1.1, 5.1.2, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3 applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by that player. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

It may seem strange but it’s not up to you it’s up to the rules of chess and I don’t think there is any rule saying that “if checkmate is 100% forced for one side and that one side flags, it is a win for them”. The rule that says it should be a draw goes by the logic of “it is impossible for black to checkmate by any set of legal moves, so if white times out it is a draw”. The rule is 6.9 "Except where one of Articles 5.1.1, 5.1.2, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3 applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by that player. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

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