So many puzzles have false mate motif

So many puzzles have false mate motif. For example Opera mate. From Wikipedia: The opera mate is a common method of checkmating. It works by attacking an uncastled king on the back rank with a rook using a bishop to protect it. An enemy pawn or a piece other than a knight is used to restrict the enemy king's movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkmate_pattern#Opera_mate

In this puzzle we see smth similar, but king is castled and its not opera mate: https://lichess.org/training/SaVgq
In this puzzle we see that bishop is on another side regarding rook where bishop should be, and no black pawn is used to restrict the enemy king's movement https://lichess.org/training/q0j8P
But other puzzles we see are some nonsense:
in the centre of the desk: https://lichess.org/training/pDH3U https://lichess.org/training/Vm9Of
or even with another set of pieces to make opera mate https://lichess.org/training/4VAuQ https://lichess.org/training/X2UVB https://lichess.org/training/lxACb
This one has a motif Vucovic`s mate and Opera mate (and it is Vucovic) https://lichess.org/training/JVg9T That's nonsense. 99.9% of the mates will be based on a single motif or have no motif.

I wrote only about one mate motif. The situation is the same in other motifs:
Pillsburys mate https://lichess.org/training/GyjyX
Morphys mate https://lichess.org/training/qMUiH
Epaulette mate https://lichess.org/training/3hoHQ
and many others.

I know that the motifs were submitted by users. And I have two questions.

1. How broadly should we interpret motifes? As close as possible to the model, or at least vaguely resembling the pattern?
2. What should we do about the huge amount of incorrectly assigned motifs? Should we allow motifs to be assigned only after preliminary training, or should we remove mate motifs altogether? Or is there another solution?

@AquilaReale64 In this puzzle we see smth similar, but king is castled and its not opera mate: https://lichess.org/training/SaVgq
In this puzzle we see that bishop is on another side regarding rook where bishop should be, and no black pawn is used to restrict the enemy king's movement https://lichess.org/training/q0j8P... Your puzzle example of an Opera mate missed motif , would seem to be Anderson's Mate. Nothing false about it -:]

In Anderssen's mate (named for Adolf Anderssen), the rook or queen is supported by a diagonally attacking piece such as a pawn or 'bishop' as it checkmates the opposing king along the eighth rank.

@Skittle-Head
Andersons mate is something bigger that includes opera mate. But here on Lichess no motif andersons mate. The 2 puzzle your mentioned is really andersons mate, but not opera mate. Opera mate motif is much less common because it refers us to a specific historical game (text bellow). Is it reason to submit incorrect motif opera mate only because there is no anderson mate motif? Please re-read my first message and examine others example. Incorrect motives appear far too often in puzzles. It's annoying, to say the least.

[Event "Paris"]
[White "Paul Morphy"]
[Black "Duke Karl \/ Count Isouard"]
[Site "Paris FRA"]
[Round ""]
[Annotator ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[Date "1858.??.??"]
[PlyCount "33"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Bg4 4. dxe5 Bxf3 5. Qxf3 dxe5 6. Bc4 Nf6 7. Qb3 Qe7 8. Nc3 c6 9. Bg5 b5 10. Nxb5 cxb5 11. Bxb5+ Nbd7 12. O-O-O Rd8 13. Rxd7 Rxd7 14. Rd1 Qe6 15. Bxd7+ Nxd7 16. Qb8+ Nxb8 17. Rd8# 1-0

@AquilaReale64 said ^

But here on Lichess no motif andersons mate.

Sorry, I misunderstood the motif thing, None the less, I thought you might like this famous game, with Anderson vs Zukertort -1869 featuring the Anderson mate. -:]

• https://chesstempo.com/game-database/game/adolf-anderssen-vs-johannes-zukertort/1955782/65 -

bump

I've been using the Liches base in my projects for many years. Among millions of tasks, I always found topics that I needed. If I ask for 30,000 fork-themed puzzles, I will receive 30,000 fork-themed puzzles. Topics correspond to tasks.

@Bishop1964
Thank you for your detailed response.

In "Puzzle Themes" Lichess deviates intentionally from the classical description for some mating motifs. Read the text below the mating motif very carefully. This description is sometimes much broader than the classical description.
Why did they do it ?
The classical description is sometimes too tight. It would be pretty boring if you choose a category with 5000 puzzles, but all puzzles were in reality the same basic puzzle. The best example is "Anastasia's Mate". This category contains 7660 puzzles. Play a few puzzles there and you will find out very soon why Lichess did what they did in other categories.

You were absolutely right to use Anastasia's mate as an example. That's exactly how I think the motif should look.
It turns out that these tags only vaguely resemble the actual motif. Okay, let it be. But I'm not really sure how they can be used in that case?
Fun fact: The “swallows tail mate” used to include the “dovetail mate”, but now the “dovetail mate” has been listed as a separate motif. In this case, for some reason, they decided to make the motif more specific rather than more general.

By the way, all mating motifs were tagged automatically by Lichess using some kind of search algorithm.

I didn't know that. How did you find out? I thought all tags were added manually, and that the ones added automatically have a lock icon and can no longer be voted on.

Answer : What do you mean with "only after preliminary training" ?

What I meant was that people should complete a short training session, like in a video game, or take a short quiz to demonstrate their understanding of the themes before being allowed to vote.

@RemRus said ^

I've been using the Liches base in my projects for many years. Among millions of tasks, I always found topics that I needed. If I ask for 30,000 fork-themed puzzles, I will receive 30,000 fork-themed puzzles. Topics correspond to tasks.

Please read the thread and the posts in it carefully. The issue is how broadly mate motifs should be interpreted. There are practically no problems with standard puzzles themes af forks, pins etc. Although, based on my experience, I can say that very often a puzzle contains only an attraction or only a deflection. But it has both of those themes in its tags. It seems that many people don't understand the difference or get confused, which is why they use an incorrect tag that doesn't exist in this puzzle. Of course, I know that some problems may involve both attraction and deflection, but that's not the case we're talking about here.