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Secret Sidelines in 1. e4 - How to surprise the Alekhine defense

@RuyLopez1000 said ^

"White still has a +0.3 advantage."

  • Instead of +1.0. The whole point of the 4 pawn attack is to try and refute 1...Nf6.
    The white pawn is no better on c5, leaving a hole on d5, than on c4, where it controls central square d5 and can support the advance d5. The black knight is better in the center on d5 occupying the hole than on b6. So black should be glad with the insertion of c5 Nd5.

This sideline is fine. It's a practical option for those who don't want to deal with the sharper four pawn line and to put the opponent out of book.

This is why sidelines exist. Just because it isn't the no.1 engine option is not a reason not to play it.

I mostly agree with you, but is it really a practical option for those who don't want to deal with the sharper four pawn line? Don't you have to learn it anyway because of 6...Bf5? There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play that line anyways? @GetDiscombobulated do you have anything in mind for 6...Bf5?

@RuyLopez1000 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/AJUKYF4C) > > "White still has a +0.3 advantage." > > * Instead of +1.0. The whole point of the 4 pawn attack is to try and refute 1...Nf6. > > The white pawn is no better on c5, leaving a hole on d5, than on c4, where it controls central square d5 and can support the advance d5. The black knight is better in the center on d5 occupying the hole than on b6. So black should be glad with the insertion of c5 Nd5. > > This sideline is fine. It's a practical option for those who don't want to deal with the sharper four pawn line and to put the opponent out of book. > > This is why sidelines exist. Just because it isn't the no.1 engine option is not a reason not to play it. I mostly agree with you, but is it really a practical option for those who don't want to deal with the sharper four pawn line? Don't you have to learn it anyway because of 6...Bf5? There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play that line anyways? @GetDiscombobulated do you have anything in mind for 6...Bf5?

@tpr your not wrong at all that the main line is theoretically more challenging, but since the winrates aren't that good I thought I might look for a slightly less critical alternative with practical chances. I know it's not the best line and you correctly identified the correct plan for black with be6. But that is only played in 6% of the games, and even then the position looks interesting for me.

But as the title suggest, the goal was to surprise the Alekhine and not refute it. Im sure there are a million chessable courses and videos if you wanna do that. But I appreciate your feedback nonetheless.
Also thanks @RuyLopez1000 for defending my idea :) my lines seem to be dubious enough to stir up discussion sometimes, which makes sense cuz they kinda are lol

@tpr your not wrong at all that the main line is theoretically more challenging, but since the winrates aren't that good I thought I might look for a slightly less critical alternative with practical chances. I know it's not the best line and you correctly identified the correct plan for black with be6. But that is only played in 6% of the games, and even then the position looks interesting for me. But as the title suggest, the goal was to surprise the Alekhine and not refute it. Im sure there are a million chessable courses and videos if you wanna do that. But I appreciate your feedback nonetheless. Also thanks @RuyLopez1000 for defending my idea :) my lines seem to be dubious enough to stir up discussion sometimes, which makes sense cuz they kinda are lol

At the moment I'm kinda winging the 4P attack, trying to not blunder any pawns xd . basically delaying nf3 as long as possible. for example my most recent 10+0 against an IM https://www.chess.com/game/live/168620796386 Black ran out of moves so I won. The c5 line looks very promising and i remember there was a moment, maybe against g6 where you play nc3 first, then c5—nd5—bc4 forcing an unpleasent choice, nxc3-there is no pressure on the centre, c6-b8 knight sucks, e6-c8 bishop sucks, but i guess there would be be6, so im not sure if im remembering correctly

At the moment I'm kinda winging the 4P attack, trying to not blunder any pawns xd . basically delaying nf3 as long as possible. for example my most recent 10+0 against an IM https://www.chess.com/game/live/168620796386 Black ran out of moves so I won. The c5 line looks very promising and i remember there was a moment, maybe against g6 where you play nc3 first, then c5—nd5—bc4 forcing an unpleasent choice, nxc3-there is no pressure on the centre, c6-b8 knight sucks, e6-c8 bishop sucks, but i guess there would be be6, so im not sure if im remembering correctly

"maybe against g6"

  • Yes, after ...g6 the main line is c5 indeed.
    https://lichess.org/QqaxThp8#14
"maybe against g6" * Yes, after ...g6 the main line is c5 indeed. https://lichess.org/QqaxThp8#14

@GetDiscombobulated the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways?

@GetDiscombobulated the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways?

Am I being ignored? Is there a good reason?

Am I being ignored? Is there a good reason?

@Liray2000 said ^

@GetDiscombobulated the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways?

Yes.

@Liray2000 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/ADCDu2Hw) > @GetDiscombobulated the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways? Yes.

@Liray2000 said ^

the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways?

It's not a problem. In that case you play the main line. This sideline is an excellent practical idea. 6...Nc6 is far more common than 6...Bf5.

@Liray2000 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/ADCDu2Hw) > the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways? It's not a problem. In that case you play the main line. This sideline is an excellent practical idea. 6...Nc6 is far more common than 6...Bf5.

@RuyLopez1000 said ^

the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways?

It's not a problem. In that case you play the main line. This sideline is an excellent practical idea. 6...Nc6 is far more common than 6...Bf5.

The whole idea was to not have to learn that and save time "and came to the conclusion that my standard run of the mill four pawn attack won't do anymore. Unless of course I sat down and actually learned the plans, patterns and ideas and gained a rich understanding of this particular opening. How boring! Who has time for that!" So 1. It's a relatively small risk but still a problem and 2. He didn't even mention this risk. It doesn't make this variation outright bad(although this IS a problem, or at least a big disadvantage, if you want to get into the specifics of the terminology), but it makes the blog bad. The good thing is that the fix is easy, just mention this. Also, if I was playing the Alekhine with black I think I would switch my move order after reading this blog or facing this. And if you plan to play this OTB a second time without learning the main line when your opponent can prepare...

@RuyLopez1000 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/Mqkmy5vU) > > the biggest problem is not that it's too dubious it's that there are lines after 6...Bf5 where there seems to be nothing good except the main line. There is indeed 7.Nf3 e6 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.c4, but after 7...Nc6 don't you kind of have to play the main line anyways? > > It's not a problem. In that case you play the main line. This sideline is an excellent practical idea. 6...Nc6 is far more common than 6...Bf5. The whole idea was to not have to learn that and save time "and came to the conclusion that my standard run of the mill four pawn attack won't do anymore. Unless of course I sat down and actually learned the plans, patterns and ideas and gained a rich understanding of this particular opening. How boring! Who has time for that!" So 1. It's a relatively small risk but still a problem and 2. He didn't even mention this risk. It doesn't make this variation outright bad(although this IS a problem, or at least a big disadvantage, if you want to get into the specifics of the terminology), but it makes the blog bad. The good thing is that the fix is easy, just mention this. Also, if I was playing the Alekhine with black I think I would switch my move order after reading this blog or facing this. And if you plan to play this OTB a second time without learning the main line when your opponent can prepare...

@Liray2000 said ^

The whole idea was to not have to learn that and save time "and came to the conclusion that my standard run of the mill four pawn attack won't do anymore. Unless of course I sat down and actually learned the plans, patterns and ideas and gained a rich understanding of this particular opening. How boring! Who has time for that!" So 1. It's a relatively small risk but still a problem and

  1. He didn't even mention this risk.

No ones perfect.

It doesn't make this variation outright bad(although this IS a problem, or at least a big disadvantage, if you want to get into the specifics of the terminology),

but it makes the blog bad.

False. One oversight does not suddenly make a blog bad.

The good thing is that the fix is easy, just mention this.

Good idea.

Also, if I was playing the Alekhine with black I think I would switch my move order after reading this blog or facing this. And if you plan to play this OTB a second time without learning the main line when your opponent can prepare...

It gives the option of playing a position which you prefer (the c5 idea), when you can.

Otherwise you play the main line.

@Liray2000 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/rCT7WTGe) > The whole idea was to not have to learn that and save time "and came to the conclusion that my standard run of the mill four pawn attack won't do anymore. Unless of course I sat down and actually learned the plans, patterns and ideas and gained a rich understanding of this particular opening. How boring! Who has time for that!" So 1. It's a relatively small risk but still a problem and >2. He didn't even mention this risk. No ones perfect. >It doesn't make this variation outright bad(although this IS a problem, or at least a big disadvantage, if you want to get into the specifics of the terminology), >but it makes the blog bad. False. One oversight does not suddenly make a blog bad. >The good thing is that the fix is easy, just mention this. Good idea. >Also, if I was playing the Alekhine with black I think I would switch my move order after reading this blog or facing this. And if you plan to play this OTB a second time without learning the main line when your opponent can prepare... It gives the option of playing a position which you prefer (the c5 idea), *when you can*. Otherwise you play the main line.