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Lichess and Take Take Take Sign Cooperation Agreement

@Hedgehog1963 said ^

This is interesting. I'm assuming we will see what money TTT pays Lichess. The question then becomes: How do TTT make money? What is behind their paywall?

TTT is a startup, they don't make any money. My wild guess is that they are close to running empty, plan to launch a funding round and need something they can show as a major success.

@Hedgehog1963 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/YvRW1Hnz) > This is interesting. I'm assuming we will see what money TTT pays Lichess. The question then becomes: How do TTT make money? What is behind their paywall? TTT is a startup, they don't make any money. My wild guess is that they are close to running empty, plan to launch a funding round and need something they can show as a major success.

This is devastating. Lichess has been community driven and funded for so long, and the company you chose to tie yourself with is backed by Peter Thiel of all people? If you're having funding issues I get it. Chess is growing, and Lichess is growing because it's the best chess platform out there. But surely there were better alternatives than this. People love and care about this site, as evidenced by the huge array of volunteers and supporters that make this possible in the first place. If you have to give up control (via funding) to private interests to fund an open source nonprofit platform, doesn't that partially defeat the purpose of the platform in the first place? Lichess is now tied into all decisions TakTakeTake makes in the future. I hope you know what you're doing.

This is devastating. Lichess has been community driven and funded for so long, and the company you chose to tie yourself with is backed by Peter Thiel of all people? If you're having funding issues I get it. Chess is growing, and Lichess is growing because it's the best chess platform out there. But surely there were better alternatives than this. People love and care about this site, as evidenced by the huge array of volunteers and supporters that make this possible in the first place. If you have to give up control (via funding) to private interests to fund an open source nonprofit platform, doesn't that partially defeat the purpose of the platform in the first place? Lichess is now tied into all decisions TakTakeTake makes in the future. I hope you know what you're doing.

My take is that TTT is just using Lichess to bootstrap their business; starting a new chess platform from scratch is nearly impossible due to the network effects. By seeding TTT with Lichess players, they neatly avoid this problem. When the platform is well established, they can execute the pivot: TTT could build their own infrastructure, migrate users with a seamless "upgrade," then stop all data sharing. At that point, if the majority of Lichess players had already migrated to TTT (due to a few shiny new features), the original website would become a ghost town, with all TTT players suddenly vanishing overnight.

This feels like a strategic mistake by the Lichess team. If TTT wants to use the open-source codebase, that's great; but this is worse than that; it's building a path for this for-profit company to fragment our community in the future. I really hope I'm mistaken and it doesn't come to that.

My take is that TTT is just using Lichess to bootstrap their business; starting a new chess platform from scratch is nearly impossible due to the network effects. By seeding TTT with Lichess players, they neatly avoid this problem. When the platform is well established, they can execute the pivot: TTT could build their own infrastructure, migrate users with a seamless "upgrade," then stop all data sharing. At that point, if the majority of Lichess players had already migrated to TTT (due to a few shiny new features), the original website would become a ghost town, with all TTT players suddenly vanishing overnight. This feels like a strategic mistake by the Lichess team. If TTT wants to use the open-source codebase, that's great; but this is worse than that; it's building a path for this for-profit company to fragment our community in the future. I really hope I'm mistaken and it doesn't come to that.

@chess6144560 said ^

This feels like a strategic mistake by the Lichess team. If TTT wants to use the open-source codebase, that's great; but this is worse than that; it's building a path for this for-profit company to fragment our community in the future. I really hope I'm mistaken and it doesn't come to that.

This danger seems obvious to me. A classic Greek gift. That’s precisely why I assume the Lichess team is already aware of it and has factored it into their decision. Still, it would be reassuring if they could address this specific risk directly and help put our concerns to rest.

@chess6144560 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/DumTtDhi) > > This feels like a strategic mistake by the Lichess team. If TTT wants to use the open-source codebase, that's great; but this is worse than that; it's building a path for this for-profit company to fragment our community in the future. I really hope I'm mistaken and it doesn't come to that. This danger seems obvious to me. A classic Greek gift. That’s precisely why I assume the Lichess team is already aware of it and has factored it into their decision. Still, it would be reassuring if they could address this specific risk directly and help put our concerns to rest.

This is very concerning. A for-profit company inherently does not share the values of lichess, even if they say they do, or even if the current team does. Teams change, and Take Take Take will always be profit-motivated first and foremost. There's a pretty clear strategy for them here:

-Partner with lichess, throw money at them, act like good guys for a while
-lichess hires staff, makes other changes based on Take Take Take funding
-Now that lichess relies of Take Take Take funding, Take Take Take demands changes that go against the lichess vision

Maybe there is a plan within lichess to avoid this, but acting like Take Take Take is an ally in this post is either naive or dishonest.

This is very concerning. A for-profit company inherently does not share the values of lichess, even if they say they do, or even if the current team does. Teams change, and Take Take Take will always be profit-motivated first and foremost. There's a pretty clear strategy for them here: -Partner with lichess, throw money at them, act like good guys for a while -lichess hires staff, makes other changes based on Take Take Take funding -Now that lichess relies of Take Take Take funding, Take Take Take demands changes that go against the lichess vision Maybe there is a plan within lichess to avoid this, but acting like Take Take Take is an ally in this post is either naive or dishonest.

@onionringzx said ^

This is very concerning. A for-profit company inherently does not share the values of lichess, even if they say they do, or even if the current team does. Teams change, and Take Take Take will always be profit-motivated first and foremost. There's a pretty clear strategy for them here:

-Partner with lichess, throw money at them, act like good guys for a while
-lichess hires staff, makes other changes based on Take Take Take funding
-Now that lichess relies of Take Take Take funding, Take Take Take demands changes that go against the lichess vision

Maybe there is a plan within lichess to avoid this, but acting like Take Take Take is an ally in this post is either naive or dishonest.

This was my initial concern as well. My thoughts are that there are two factors weighing against this:

  1. Lichess is a registered charity bound to follow whatever rules govern it.
  2. The Lichess source code is AGPL-licensed, so even if Lichess went rogue, a hostile fork would emerge and some other website would replace Lichess.
@onionringzx said [^](/forum/redirect/post/lUC5pMun) > This is very concerning. A for-profit company inherently does not share the values of lichess, even if they say they do, or even if the current team does. Teams change, and Take Take Take will always be profit-motivated first and foremost. There's a pretty clear strategy for them here: > > -Partner with lichess, throw money at them, act like good guys for a while > -lichess hires staff, makes other changes based on Take Take Take funding > -Now that lichess relies of Take Take Take funding, Take Take Take demands changes that go against the lichess vision > > Maybe there is a plan within lichess to avoid this, but acting like Take Take Take is an ally in this post is either naive or dishonest. This was my initial concern as well. My thoughts are that there are two factors weighing against this: 1. Lichess is a registered charity bound to follow whatever rules govern it. 2. The Lichess source code is AGPL-licensed, so even if Lichess went rogue, a hostile fork would emerge and some other website would replace Lichess.

Another point for discussion; by using Lichess, we are now all directly contributing to the success of TTT. Without Lichess players, their platform would be a ghost town, unable to attract any new users. Every time you log into Lichess and match against a TTT player, you are effectively adding value to their VC-backed for-profit company. In a very concrete way, by playing on Lichess, we are now helping to build the very next chess.com.

Lichess players didn't sign up to be the product that makes a VC-backed startup viable. I believe we chose Lichess specifically because it was the opposite of that.

Another point for discussion; by using Lichess, we are now all directly contributing to the success of TTT. Without Lichess players, their platform would be a ghost town, unable to attract any new users. Every time you log into Lichess and match against a TTT player, you are effectively adding value to their VC-backed for-profit company. In a very concrete way, by playing on Lichess, we are now helping to build the very next chess.com. Lichess players didn't sign up to be the product that makes a VC-backed startup viable. I believe we chose Lichess specifically because it was the opposite of that.

So this:

"All operating costs, development, and content are funded solely by user donations."

...Is no longer true.

So this: "All operating costs, development, and content are funded solely by user donations." ...Is no longer true.

What happens when people who make an account via TTT start using lichess, and then realize they don't need TTT?

Will Lichess not improve its analysis and learning tools to avoid competing with TTT?

What happens when people who make an account via TTT start using lichess, and then realize they don't need TTT? Will Lichess not improve its analysis and learning tools to avoid competing with TTT?