Modern vs KID

OzyWho

I see commentators and content creators call the Modern Defense risky for Black, when they saw Magnus play it.
From my perspective, it looks very similar to the Kings Indian Defense - with the only difference being Nc3 is in front or behind the c pawn - unless I'm missing something.

What makes one good and the other risky?

I see commentators and content creators call the Modern Defense risky for Black, when they saw Magnus play it. From my perspective, it looks very similar to the Kings Indian Defense - with the only difference being Nc3 is in front or behind the c pawn - unless I'm missing something. What makes one good and the other risky?

LegendaryQueen

Misperception.

NM MrPushwood

They both could be deemed a bit risky.

LegendaryQueen

@MrPushwood said in #3:

They both could be deemed a bit risky.

True. Chess itself can be considered risky.

@MrPushwood said in #3: > They both could be deemed a bit risky. True. Chess itself can be considered risky.

CM Sarg0n

edited

I like ... g6 against d4 but not against e4. It seems more different than it looks at first glance.

Nisko1234 edited

Prior to computers, KID was considered good. Fischer and Kasparov played it - these people don't fool around.

Nowadays if you put comp. vs. comp., I think White wins, but in a very non-human way - White doesn't castle at all... this means there's no clear human way to just 'crush' the KID, so it gives the KID practicle chances. A 100 years old GM - Yuri Averbakh, R.I.P, has created a system against it. The computer move is h3 - but moves without a Human thought behind them... that's more of a memory game.

I studied the Modern a bit, looks like the comp. suggestion is (as usual) mighty different then the human one - humans play a kind of Yugoslav Attack, while comp. likes e4, d4, Bc4, Nf3, 0-0, c3 - ready to attack - exploiting the fact that Black plays pretty slowly (all these pawn moves - d6, c6, b5, not castling), which makes sense. But still, it's a computer...

My study on the Modern:
https://lichess.(org/study/6yJxb24k)

Prior to computers, KID was considered good. Fischer and Kasparov played it - these people don't fool around. Nowadays if you put comp. vs. comp., I think White wins, but in a very non-human way - White doesn't castle at all... this means there's no clear human way to just 'crush' the KID, so it gives the KID practicle chances. A 100 years old GM - Yuri Averbakh, R.I.P, has created a system against it. The computer move is h3 - but moves without a Human thought behind them... that's more of a memory game. I studied the Modern a bit, looks like the comp. suggestion is (as usual) mighty different then the human one - humans play a kind of Yugoslav Attack, while comp. likes e4, d4, Bc4, Nf3, 0-0, c3 - ready to attack - exploiting the fact that Black plays pretty slowly (all these pawn moves - d6, c6, b5, not castling), which makes sense. But still, it's a computer... My study on the Modern: https://lichess.(org/study/6yJxb24k)

CM Sarg0n

KID stands firmly - even in high-end correspondence chess. In fact, Black wins sometime!

OpenTest

You are of course right in saying that the Modern, as played against 1 d4, leads to positions similar to the KID. Modern players try to achieve those structures without the theoretical hassle that comes with the KID proper. Sometimes the Modern move order (kingside fianchetto without Nf6) constitutes an advantage over the KID, say if White responds to the move e7-e5 by playing an early d4-d5, which allows Black to play f7-f5 in one move since, unlike in the KID, Black hasn't blocked the f-pawn with his knight).

The risky part comes in when Black absolutely insists on avoiding any transpositions into KID theory. Probably the most critical position in the Modern (against d4) occurs after

1 d4 g6
2 c4 Bg7
3 Nc3 d6
4 e4

Here it clearly seems most natural to just play Nf6 and get castled, but that would simply be the KID! What else can Black do? The move 4 ... Nbd7 only postpones the decision and would eventually lead to an older line of the Classical KID.

The two remaining independent choices are 4...Nc6 and 4...e5. Both attack the point d4, a common motif in the Modern, where the bishop on g7 puts pressure on d4 since it is not blocked by a knight.

Unfortunately both moves are edgy, e.g. 4 ...Nc6 5 d5, and the knight has to go to the precarious square d4, when White seems to get a good position in various ways. Or if 4 ...e5 5 dxe5 dxe5 6 Qxd8 Kxd8, and now 7 f4! is the most dynamic way of playing this semi-endgame (which otherwise would be promising for Black in the long term due to the weakened d4 square).

Another drawback of 1...g6, at least from the perspective of elite players, is the relative freedom of development it gives White. After all,
1 d4 g6
also allows White to forego c2-c4 and instead play 2 e4 and 3 Nc3. Those positions should officially labeled "Pirc Defense" if Black plays an early Nf6, and "Modern Defense" otherwise. The Modern has a pretty good reputation here by comparison, but then among GMs the Pirc is regarded as relatively risky to begin with.

You are of course right in saying that the Modern, as played against 1 d4, leads to positions similar to the KID. Modern players try to achieve those structures without the theoretical hassle that comes with the KID proper. Sometimes the Modern move order (kingside fianchetto without Nf6) constitutes an advantage over the KID, say if White responds to the move e7-e5 by playing an early d4-d5, which allows Black to play f7-f5 in one move since, unlike in the KID, Black hasn't blocked the f-pawn with his knight). The risky part comes in when Black absolutely insists on avoiding any transpositions into KID theory. Probably the most critical position in the Modern (against d4) occurs after 1 d4 g6 2 c4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 e4 Here it clearly seems most natural to just play Nf6 and get castled, but that would simply be the KID! What else can Black do? The move 4 ... Nbd7 only postpones the decision and would eventually lead to an older line of the Classical KID. The two remaining independent choices are 4...Nc6 and 4...e5. Both attack the point d4, a common motif in the Modern, where the bishop on g7 puts pressure on d4 since it is not blocked by a knight. Unfortunately both moves are edgy, e.g. 4 ...Nc6 5 d5, and the knight has to go to the precarious square d4, when White seems to get a good position in various ways. Or if 4 ...e5 5 dxe5 dxe5 6 Qxd8 Kxd8, and now 7 f4! is the most dynamic way of playing this semi-endgame (which otherwise would be promising for Black in the long term due to the weakened d4 square). Another drawback of 1...g6, at least from the perspective of elite players, is the relative freedom of development it gives White. After all, 1 d4 g6 also allows White to forego c2-c4 and instead play 2 e4 and 3 Nc3. Those positions should officially labeled "Pirc Defense" if Black plays an early Nf6, and "Modern Defense" otherwise. The Modern has a pretty good reputation here by comparison, but then among GMs the Pirc is regarded as relatively risky to begin with.

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