About exhaustive truncated chess tree exploration engine and "strategy". godepth, gonode or time limits. always truncated.
If assimilating strategy to beyond our human horizon of full min-max calculation, that kind of long term, only just being deep consequence of early decision, i would not say that the programming of the engine is to consider human strategic or positional clues** within human horizon.
It does amount to looking like that from our human eyes, because we are not looking at the positions from which such engine get their evaluation from.
These are deep beyond 16 plies to mention an arbitrary number out of the blue, and we never get to look at them.. so we have that score of the current next position best candidate, and we don't see anything like a material advantage in our human horizon or the few plies given, and then wow. keep going and well deep there we do get our visible explanation. extending the horizon by machine far but not always to terminal positions.
I don't know the proportions, in the SF sub-trees complete set of leaves, for typical go-depth parameter values, of leafs that are legal terminal versus those of heuristic evaluation (dominated**) by material count. But I assume we are far from depths ensuring we are looking at the complete AB pruned chess tree. (other reasons than depth too, but here not needed).
So I don't agree calling any of that strategic engine thinking. not in programming (by virtue of historical parameter optimization i claim**), and not about WDL odds. I don't think that our human positional/strategic signals are about predicting material imbalances later more than they are about estimation WDL odds.. or just winning odds for one player doing the assessment.
** its leaf evaluation programming function does use terminology as well as, in abstract of actual parameter values, potentially strategically predictive components (positional signals of the input board), but the history of parameter choices as those have been implemented, has been made sequentially for most of its history, resulting in many frozen coefficients to those possibly strategic types of clues, that were all dependent on previous sequence of chess theory components frozen coefficients one at a time, back to material imbalance counting heuristic, that is my understanding so far from what i could read, with NNue in the picture it is the whole classical evaluation matrix of components that is frozen, did i gather).
that is maybe off topic but i thought knowing the internal of this type of engine might be crucial to the discussion. as introduced by previous post. It would be nice for all to have access to those associations between current position and the deep tips being probed. I would call engine thinking tactical extensions. just that we never see their tips where they could have been doing strategic assessment.. maybe they do now. how could be know.?
of course there is some room for re-purposing terminology, to redefine heuristic material imbalance outcomes deep from current position decision and human maximal true calculation horizon, as strategic assessment of the current position receiving a score from that deep. I don't think that was the intent of previous post.
Some people used to think (and i think I was) that masters actually calculate as deep as they reap the rewards of their early decisions, but review Carlsen interviews, and he had the transparency of being clear about how he comes up with some of his good moves, I have been told, and my understanding is that it has all been internalized, and does not need to be calculated exhaustively. The imagination is already having the right suggestions and only need complementary calculations.. probably in positions that might have never been encountered in all their parts.. that would be nice to study, notions of similarity and how far does a position need to be from experience for calculation to feel needed. or is that more about how much room is being sensed. how very tactical a position might have become (closing a loop).
About exhaustive truncated chess tree exploration engine and "strategy". godepth, gonode or time limits. always truncated.
If assimilating strategy to beyond our human horizon of full min-max calculation, that kind of long term, only just being deep consequence of early decision, i would not say that the programming of the engine is to consider human strategic or positional clues** within human horizon.
It does amount to looking like that from our human eyes, because we are not looking at the positions from which such engine get their evaluation from.
These are deep beyond 16 plies to mention an arbitrary number out of the blue, and we never get to look at them.. so we have that score of the current next position best candidate, and we don't see anything like a material advantage in our human horizon or the few plies given, and then wow. keep going and well deep there we do get our visible explanation. extending the horizon by machine far but not always to terminal positions.
I don't know the proportions, in the SF sub-trees complete set of leaves, for typical go-depth parameter values, of leafs that are legal terminal versus those of heuristic evaluation (dominated**) by material count. But I assume we are far from depths ensuring we are looking at the complete AB pruned chess tree. (other reasons than depth too, but here not needed).
So I don't agree calling any of that strategic engine thinking. not in programming (by virtue of historical parameter optimization i claim**), and not about WDL odds. I don't think that our human positional/strategic signals are about predicting material imbalances later more than they are about estimation WDL odds.. or just winning odds for one player doing the assessment.
** its leaf evaluation programming function does use terminology as well as, in abstract of actual parameter values, potentially strategically predictive components (positional signals of the input board), but the history of parameter choices as those have been implemented, has been made sequentially for most of its history, resulting in many frozen coefficients to those possibly strategic types of clues, that were all dependent on previous sequence of chess theory components frozen coefficients one at a time, back to material imbalance counting heuristic, that is my understanding so far from what i could read, with NNue in the picture it is the whole classical evaluation matrix of components that is frozen, did i gather).
that is maybe off topic but i thought knowing the internal of this type of engine might be crucial to the discussion. as introduced by previous post. It would be nice for all to have access to those associations between current position and the deep tips being probed. I would call engine thinking tactical extensions. just that we never see their tips where they could have been doing strategic assessment.. maybe they do now. how could be know.?
of course there is some room for re-purposing terminology, to redefine heuristic material imbalance outcomes deep from current position decision and human maximal true calculation horizon, as strategic assessment of the current position receiving a score from that deep. I don't think that was the intent of previous post.
Some people used to think (and i think I was) that masters actually calculate as deep as they reap the rewards of their early decisions, but review Carlsen interviews, and he had the transparency of being clear about how he comes up with some of his good moves, I have been told, and my understanding is that it has all been internalized, and does not need to be calculated exhaustively. The imagination is already having the right suggestions and only need complementary calculations.. probably in positions that might have never been encountered in all their parts.. that would be nice to study, notions of similarity and how far does a position need to be from experience for calculation to feel needed. or is that more about how much room is being sensed. how very tactical a position might have become (closing a loop).