KeyBoard

mods should close this topic there are about 100000000 forum post who talk about kb, its a very debatable topic

#53 So the fact that it is debatable means it should be closed? I'm sorry, the point of bringing up these issues in the forums is precisely TO debate it, and to try to come to a solution or compromise or whatever. It would be a shame if the topic got closed (at least while it is still civilly conducted).

I dont know much about keyboarding, but to me it seems unfair because you're not moving the pieces by hand or with a mouse, the computer is doing for you.

I completely agree with the arguments made by Whitedancingrockstar and Sinamon73. I'm speaking on behalf of myself, not the mod team, when I say that I believe KB extensions should be discontinued. Multi-premoves and extensions, coupled with the fact that lichess has no 0.1-second minimum time loss like chess.com, give a significant advantage to users with those capabilities. I think a fair playing field is a core pillar of lichess; KB extensions I believe contradict lichess's emphasis on fair access to all. There will obviously be playing disparities on a chess website: some may have better internet connection/access, better devices, better mouses, etc. However, unlike KB extensions, those things can't be controlled by lichess and are not within the jurisdiction of the site. The "everyone can get the KB extension" argument was well put by WDR.

(I might add that the 0.1-second time on chess.com fails to bridge this gap because that 0.1 second is crucial in quick time controls and a minimum time loss doesn't create a better fair playing field for players with worse ping/connection.)

@TCF_Namelecc I was saying this is literally a clone of multiple other forums

#57 well at least people are making productive posts, unlike all the other clones.

Most important: I have my doubts it is even possible to prevent users from using any KB extension. YouTube has the same issue with all the downloaders extensions (that they also can't prevent). As website owner you can't control/check what browser extensions are installed.

Apart from that I think there is not much to add to #2 from @ProgramFOX. Which boils down to: KB extension is just another way to specify a origin and target tile. So it is not like #55 wrote a move by the computer (at least not more than the other methods).

As far as I know Ultra is mostly about speed. If you don't play it for fun but for the rating you should optimize your internet connection, mouse and input method. Let's see when we can use something like Neuralink as input method (or will it get banned? ;)

From #2

"What all of those input methods have in common, though, is that they provide a way for you to specify the source square and the destination square. The keyboard extension is no different in that regard. So if the keyboard extension gets banned, on what grounds would it get banned? Conceptually it's no different from what Lichess already has."

I think we are focusing too much on the fact that the player in question technically is in control of the destination, as their cursor is over the given square. However, I think the more relevant question is whether they know where they are moving. As you have undoubtedly seen in twitch videos, players using the extension swirl their mouse in circles in the endgame, essentially guaranteeing that the mouse will land on a legal square no matter how the other player checks then or restricts their movement (a common flagging method that works against non-keyboard players). I find it highly unlikely that someone who moves their mouse in circles regardless of what their opponent responds with has any idea where exactly they are moving.

Let's assume that the keyboard player is making mouse circles with the king key pressed at a near-constant speed, with a little modulation (a reasonable assumption). Let's assume that his king is on e4, and that it's his opponent's turn (he is still circling, as keyboard players do). If he cares about what his next move is (let's say he wants to go to d4), he needs his mouse to land on d4 when his opponent makes their move. However, he is still circling at a constant speed, he isn't actually targeting d4 (if he was, he wouldn't be circling, instead he would simply premove to d4), he just wants to move there somehow. In order to move to d4, HIS OPPONENT must move at the precise time that allows his cursor to be over the d4 square while circling e4. Hence, he is not in control of exactly where he moves, his opponent actually is.

This might be a bit incoherent, but I hope you get my point.

Yes, this is correct. In endgame time scrambles, the computer is essentially choosing the move for you. I used to use kb, and it can flag any mouse player in a dead draw position (if it doesn't repeat). When you have a K+Q vs K you just spam the mouse in a wide circle instead of making a legitimate attempt to checkmate your opponent. On top of that, if you are going to d6 with the queen, you just move your mouse in the general direction, and wherever the cursor is at the EXACT moment the opponent moves, the Queen jumps to that square as it would have if premoved. So at this point it is a computer generating random moves.

A question I like to ask myself about a particular feature is whether it makes the game better. I used to hate premove because I thought it made the game worse. I almost never used it, even against premoving opponents. After a few decades of hating it, I came to think about this in a different way. The game with premove is simply a different game than the game without premove, and I do see some advantages to each game over the other.

Similarly, I was disgusted when I heard of the concept of multiple premoves. But now I find it really fun sometimes watching a top player like GMs Hikaru & Naroditsky making multiple premoves in a time scramble.

Does keyboarding make the game better? I am not sure, but it has caused me to stop playing UB because the only way I can reliably beat a UB player with a keyboard is to mate them. Try playing a player 300 points higher than you in a UB game, where, if you mate, you win, and otherwise, you lose. I also run into this in HB, and it's frustrating there as well, although I haven't quit HB permanently because of it.

Here is a thought experiment. Imagine chess where you have a button you could press that causes a random move to be made for you. Would this make the game better? In an endgame you would simply hit this button as fast as possible. Is that a better game?

Is using a keyboard essentially this?

By the way, let's put to bed one argument - the argument that because something is available to everyone, it is ok. Almost everyone could go rob their neighbor (or try to), but most societies agree that this is not ok, and have laws against it. Almost everyone could use Stockfish to cheat at online chess, but most sites disallow it and most people think this is not ok. Almost everyone could use a keyboard interface, but that does not imply that it is ok. (It also does not imply that it is not ok). To summarize: the fact that almost everyone could use a keyboard interface says very little about whether it is ok.