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2 weeks of E-board caused my 10-year account banned

@bufferunderrun said in #10:

This TOS should be read in conjunction with our GDPR compliant privacy policy, and with our Fair Play and Community Guidelines. These are incorporated into these Terms by reference, and make up part of the legally binding agreement we're both entering into.

https://lichess.org/terms-of-service
And https://lichess.org/page/fair-play listed there pretty clearly states:

The only legal ways to play moves on Lichess are with the official Lichess APIs for Boards and Bots, or by interacting directly with the official Lichess graphical user interface (GUI).

As far as I am aware, Lichess has no affiliation with any of those companies, nor does it sell any boards to people. Lichess provides an API that anyone can use. Lichess also has rules that you need to comply with if you want to play here. You are responsible for your own account, whatever the devices, extensions and so on you are using.

From a legally standpoint (AFAIK I am not a lawyer) if someone buy legally a product making his due diligence about it (eg a smartphone in a regular market) and then turn out that such product breach regulations (eg the smartphone occupy reserved frequency, instead of what prescribed by law) the person will not be responsible for the breach, producer is.

End user can't do an analysis on inner workings of each product he legally buy, both because is practically prohibitive and because for some product is forbidden.

So regardless of what in Lichess ToS I don't think end user have any way to choose to abide your rules if is a third party product to breach such rules surreptitiously, without any possibility of due diligence from end user.

Unless obviously you provide a list of certified/supported interfaces to the platform (and this tool is not listed here).
Unless you provide such list the OP can't possibly know to be in breach of your contact.

@bufferunderrun said in #10: > >This TOS should be read in conjunction with our GDPR compliant privacy policy, and with our Fair Play and Community Guidelines. These are incorporated into these Terms by reference, and make up part of the legally binding agreement we're both entering into. > > https://lichess.org/terms-of-service > And https://lichess.org/page/fair-play listed there pretty clearly states: > > >The only legal ways to play moves on Lichess are with the official Lichess APIs for Boards and Bots, or by interacting directly with the official Lichess graphical user interface (GUI). > > As far as I am aware, Lichess has no affiliation with any of those companies, nor does it sell any boards to people. Lichess provides an API that anyone can use. Lichess also has rules that you need to comply with if you want to play here. You are responsible for your own account, whatever the devices, extensions and so on you are using. From a legally standpoint (AFAIK I am not a lawyer) if someone buy legally a product making his due diligence about it (eg a smartphone in a regular market) and then turn out that such product breach regulations (eg the smartphone occupy reserved frequency, instead of what prescribed by law) the person will not be responsible for the breach, producer is. End user can't do an analysis on inner workings of each product he legally buy, both because is practically prohibitive and because for some product is forbidden. So regardless of what in Lichess ToS I don't think end user have any way to choose to abide your rules if is a third party product to breach such rules surreptitiously, without any possibility of due diligence from end user. Unless obviously you provide a list of certified/supported interfaces to the platform (and this tool is not listed here). Unless you provide such list the OP can't possibly know to be in breach of your contact.

A laptop manufacturer tells you that you should only use OEM charger with their laptop. Your original charger breaks and you then go and buy a new one from a TrustMeBro company. Some time later your laptop dies, you complain to the laptop manufacturer. TrustMeBro told me it's okay to use the charger, how should I know it wasn't? Well, guess what... that charger is what killed your laptop and the laptop manufacturer warned you to use the OEM charger only.

So while I sympathize with OP, it's an unfortunate situation for them, the site has rules and you need to follow them. Any third-party stuff you choose to use is your choice. Lichess didn't sell you anything.

A laptop manufacturer tells you that you should only use OEM charger with their laptop. Your original charger breaks and you then go and buy a new one from a TrustMeBro company. Some time later your laptop dies, you complain to the laptop manufacturer. TrustMeBro told me it's okay to use the charger, how should I know it wasn't? Well, guess what... that charger is what killed your laptop and the laptop manufacturer warned you to use the OEM charger only. So while I sympathize with OP, it's an unfortunate situation for them, the site has rules and you need to follow them. Any third-party stuff you choose to use is your choice. Lichess didn't sell you anything.

Is Chessup2 also banned? I was considering getting one... Reconsidering now.

Is Chessup2 also banned? I was considering getting one... Reconsidering now.

A better question would be, does this board use the official Board API? If the answer is yes then there is no problem.
You should probably ask them directly.

A better question would be, does this board use the official Board API? If the answer is yes then there is no problem. You should probably ask them directly.

@Rahsulaimon said in #13:

Chessup2

From what I know, they use the Lichess API, but I'm not the best person to ask.

@Rahsulaimon said in #13: > Chessup2 From what I know, they use the Lichess API, but I'm not the best person to ask.

@bufferunderrun said in #12:

A laptop manufacturer tells you that you should only use OEM charger with their laptop.

That's exactly my point.
ToS doesn't seem to me that provide a list or a way in which the user can know if a product is certified/compliant as would be saying "only use OEM clients".

How can a user know if a producer is a trust me bro or if they are legitimately compatible with Lichess API?

That's my question and the why I find nonsensical to punish the end user if such user can't possibly answer this question (as I think)

@bufferunderrun said in #14:

A better question would be, does this board use the official Board API?

Great question, but really how could I answer or just trust the answer I may receive from a producer? (for any possible producers today or in a near future)

@bufferunderrun said in #12: > A laptop manufacturer tells you that you should only use OEM charger with their laptop. That's exactly my point. ToS doesn't seem to me that provide a list or a way in which the user can know if a product is certified/compliant as would be saying "only use OEM clients". How can a user know if a producer is a trust me bro or if they are legitimately compatible with Lichess API? That's my question and the why I find nonsensical to punish the end user if such user can't possibly answer this question (as I think) @bufferunderrun said in #14: > A better question would be, does this board use the official Board API? Great question, but really how could I answer or just trust the answer I may receive from a producer? (for any possible producers today or in a near future)

If the situation is as presented (and I have so far no reason to believe it is not so) it seems it is handled poorly by Lichess and team, and some of its techie people should look a long hard look in the mirror.

How can they be so far removed in their "tech ivory tower" not to understand that the average user does not even know what an API is (as exemplified by #3)? It's like stopping a random person on the street and being surprised if they cannot give the definition of a Lie group.

I really hope this thread will lead to some change.

If the situation is as presented (and I have so far no reason to believe it is not so) it seems it is handled poorly by Lichess and team, and some of its techie people should look a long hard look in the mirror. How can they be so far removed in their "tech ivory tower" not to understand that the average user does not even know what an API is (as exemplified by #3)? It's like stopping a random person on the street and being surprised if they cannot give the definition of a Lie group. I really hope this thread will lead to some change.

@Ender88 @ronin3b

I am not sure why you want to make it something to blame Lichess for ?

Everything has been clearly stated above.

Lichess does not need to make a list of compatible Lichess clients: any software using the public API is compatible.
I think Lichess cannot and will not change anything (in a technical sense)

Chessnut has chosen to use Lichess private API (which is not documented and reserved for Lichess web console and Lichess mobile applications) ... unbeknownst to their customers

So the solution can only come from Chessnut and/or people's knowledge about this issue.

As for the unfortunate Chessnut app users getting banned, you can compare this situation to a customer wanting to buy something in a shop, but their wallet was stollen on the way: does the shop keeper has to provide for that ?

Fortunately, a lot of e-board providers and software providers are aware of the notion of public API ...
Even if you want to go for Chessnut hardware, you still don't need to use their app ... there are free alternatives using the public API

@Ender88 @ronin3b I am not sure why you want to make it something to blame Lichess for ? Everything has been clearly stated above. Lichess does not need to make a list of compatible Lichess clients: any software using the public API is compatible. I think Lichess cannot and will not change anything (in a technical sense) Chessnut has chosen to use Lichess private API (which is not documented and reserved for Lichess web console and Lichess mobile applications) ... unbeknownst to their customers So the solution can only come from Chessnut and/or people's knowledge about this issue. As for the unfortunate Chessnut app users getting banned, you can compare this situation to a customer wanting to buy something in a shop, but their wallet was stollen on the way: does the shop keeper has to provide for that ? Fortunately, a lot of e-board providers and software providers are aware of the notion of public API ... Even if you want to go for Chessnut hardware, you still don't need to use their app ... there are free alternatives using the public API

@fredo599 said in #18:

@Ender88 @ronin3b

I am not sure why you want to make it something to blame Lichess for ?

Is this the official Lichess response? I notice that your profile lists you as admin or mod or tech team, still I am not sure if you are replying in a personal or official capacity.

Still the answer seems very heavy handed and uncompromising.

I have no skin in the game here. I am not asking Lichess to do anything. I am just adding an opinion and a point of view, in the hopes that it can get through.

But if you were to ask me, it would maybe be sensible to re-evaluate the ban that was so swiftly dealt to OP. Now the situation has been clarified and I am pretty sure that OP got the message not to use the infringing app. What is the purpose of holding this hard line?

That mentioned, this website is yours to run as you please. I'll just add, in your example of that customer whole wallet was stolen, and gets in trouble with a shop, more often than not banks will look after them, reverse charges and work together with all honest parties to an outcome that is satisfactory for all. Unless the bank or the shop does not mind losing their customers.

@fredo599 said in #18: > @Ender88 @ronin3b > > I am not sure why you want to make it something to blame Lichess for ? Is this the official Lichess response? I notice that your profile lists you as admin or mod or tech team, still I am not sure if you are replying in a personal or official capacity. Still the answer seems very heavy handed and uncompromising. I have no skin in the game here. I am not asking Lichess to do anything. I am just adding an opinion and a point of view, in the hopes that it can get through. But if you were to ask me, it would maybe be sensible to re-evaluate the ban that was so swiftly dealt to OP. Now the situation has been clarified and I am pretty sure that OP got the message not to use the infringing app. What is the purpose of holding this hard line? That mentioned, this website is yours to run as you please. I'll just add, in your example of that customer whole wallet was stolen, and gets in trouble with a shop, more often than not banks will look after them, reverse charges and work together with all honest parties to an outcome that is satisfactory for all. Unless the bank or the shop does not mind losing their customers.

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