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Is it genuinely possible for white to checkmate black in this position?

@tpr said ^

"The rules simply state that one must stay within the allotted time."

  • Yes, if you time out, then you lose.
    However, you cannot win on time when there exists no series of legal moves to win on the board.

The rule regarding a cooperative checkmate is universal. It makes no allowances for the players' skill level, the amount of time remaining, or any other factors. This means that a checkmate of the type described here can occur just as easily in a world championship match as it could in an amateur-level game—anyone is capable of delivering or receiving one. That is precisely why I am asking: would a player be in violation of the rules if they were to receive such a checkmate?
For some reason, you are focusing exclusively on scenarios involving time running out, as if the rule were designed solely for those situations.

@tpr said [^](/forum/redirect/post/WvmqALkV) > "The rules simply state that one must stay within the allotted time." > * Yes, if you time out, then you lose. > However, you cannot win on time when there exists no series of legal moves to win on the board. The rule regarding a cooperative checkmate is universal. It makes no allowances for the players' skill level, the amount of time remaining, or any other factors. This means that a checkmate of the type described here can occur just as easily in a world championship match as it could in an amateur-level game—anyone is capable of delivering or receiving one. That is precisely why I am asking: would a player be in violation of the rules if they were to receive such a checkmate? For some reason, you are focusing exclusively on scenarios involving time running out, as if the rule were designed solely for those situations.

yes that rule is solely for timeouts. it is exepction rule in timeout section. I don't quite follow what would other offence? If some one were to intentionally self-mate that might be collusion if can be proven. But really far fetched

yes that rule is solely for timeouts. it is exepction rule in timeout section. I don't quite follow what would other offence? If some one were to intentionally self-mate that might be collusion if can be proven. But really far fetched

@petri999 said ^

yes that rule is solely for timeouts. it is exepction rule in timeout section. I don't quite follow what would other offence? If some one were to intentionally self-mate that might be collusion if can be proven. But really far fetched

This is stated right at the beginning: BASIC RULES OF PLAY.
<If the position is such that neither player can possibly checkmate the opponent’s king, the game is drawn>

Based on this, there is an additional provision for situations where a player runs out of time—essentially a restatement of the same point. So, you are incorrect.
Thus, a cooperative checkmate and a forced checkmate are treated the same way.
Therefore, all I can do is repeat my question for a third time: would a player be violating the rules if they were to receive the type of checkmate shown in this example—for instance, during a world championship?

@petri999 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/SDUpMLOF) > yes that rule is solely for timeouts. it is exepction rule in timeout section. I don't quite follow what would other offence? If some one were to intentionally self-mate that might be collusion if can be proven. But really far fetched This is stated right at the beginning: BASIC RULES OF PLAY. <If the position is such that neither player can possibly checkmate the opponent’s king, the game is drawn> Based on this, there is an additional provision for situations where a player runs out of time—essentially a restatement of the same point. So, you are incorrect. Thus, a cooperative checkmate and a forced checkmate are treated the same way. Therefore, all I can do is repeat my question for a third time: would a player be violating the rules if they were to receive the type of checkmate shown in this example—for instance, during a world championship?

Have we sacrificed the beauty of chess in our pursuit of results?
How long will these chess clock rules remain outdated?

Have we sacrificed the beauty of chess in our pursuit of results? How long will these chess clock rules remain outdated?

The principle of checkmate by any series of legal moves occurs in 4 articles, not only time-out:

1.5 If the position is such that neither player can possibly checkmate the opponent’s king, the game is drawn (see Article 5.2.2).

5.1.2 The game is lost by the player who declares he/she resigns (this immediately ends the game), unless the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves. In this case the result of the game is a draw.

5.2.2 The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7.

6.9 Except where one of Articles 5.1.1, 5.1.2, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3 applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by that player. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.

Deliberately playing bad moves is punishable by this article:
11.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.

The principle of checkmate by any series of legal moves occurs in 4 articles, not only time-out: 1.5 If the position is such that neither player can possibly checkmate the opponent’s king, the game is drawn (see Article 5.2.2). 5.1.2 The game is lost by the player who declares he/she resigns (this immediately ends the game), unless the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves. In this case the result of the game is a draw. 5.2.2 The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7. 6.9 Except where one of Articles 5.1.1, 5.1.2, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3 applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by that player. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves. Deliberately playing bad moves is punishable by this article: 11.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.

@tpr said ^

The principle of checkmate by any series of legal moves occurs in 4 articles, not only time-out:

1.5 If the position is such that neither player can possibly checkmate the opponent’s king, the game is drawn (see Article 5.2.2).

5.1.2 The game is lost by the player who declares he/she resigns (this immediately ends the game), unless the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate t...

What are you trying to say in the last paragraph? That in a bishop-versus-knight endgame, if someone gets checkmated, they will be accused of making intentionally bad moves?

@tpr said [^](/forum/redirect/post/sUoPA6Sc) > The principle of checkmate by any series of legal moves occurs in 4 articles, not only time-out: > > 1.5 If the position is such that neither player can possibly checkmate the opponent’s king, the game is drawn (see Article 5.2.2). > > 5.1.2 The game is lost by the player who declares he/she resigns (this immediately ends the game), unless the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate t... What are you trying to say in the last paragraph? That in a bishop-versus-knight endgame, if someone gets checkmated, they will be accused of making intentionally bad moves?

"intentionally bad moves"

  • Article 11.1 is not universal, and is open to arbiter's interpretation, depending on strength of players, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms...
    Articles 1.5, 5.1.2, 5.2.2, 6.9 are universal: independent of player strength, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms...
"intentionally bad moves" * Article 11.1 is not universal, and is open to arbiter's interpretation, depending on strength of players, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms... Articles 1.5, 5.1.2, 5.2.2, 6.9 are universal: independent of player strength, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms...

@tpr said ^

"intentionally bad moves"

  • Article 11.1 is not universal, and is open to arbiter's interpretation, depending on strength of players, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms...
    Articles 1.5, 5.1.2, 5.2.2, 6.9 are universal: independent of player strength, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms...

You write that such a position should be played with an increment on the clock in order to defend it.
A chess player failed to defend it and ended up getting checkmated via legal moves; did he violate the rules?

@tpr said [^](/forum/redirect/post/cYEa0RFJ) > "intentionally bad moves" > * Article 11.1 is not universal, and is open to arbiter's interpretation, depending on strength of players, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms... > Articles 1.5, 5.1.2, 5.2.2, 6.9 are universal: independent of player strength, time control, tournament standings, possible master norms... You write that such a position should be played with an increment on the clock in order to defend it. A chess player failed to defend it and ended up getting checkmated via legal moves; did he violate the rules?

"did he violate the rules?"

  • It is up to the arbiter to judge if 11.1 was violated or not.
    Classical time control, plenty of time left, last round of a tournament, the grandmaster loses against his untitled opponent, who scores a master norm.
    Blitz, both flags almost falling, player under-promotes to B as the queen is further to reach.
    Beginner: never promotes to a queen as he always tend to stalemate.
    Beginner: promotes to a bishop as he had heard opposite colored bishop endgames are draws and he wanted to draw against his stronger opponent.
"did he violate the rules?" * It is up to the arbiter to judge if 11.1 was violated or not. Classical time control, plenty of time left, last round of a tournament, the grandmaster loses against his untitled opponent, who scores a master norm. Blitz, both flags almost falling, player under-promotes to B as the queen is further to reach. Beginner: never promotes to a queen as he always tend to stalemate. Beginner: promotes to a bishop as he had heard opposite colored bishop endgames are draws and he wanted to draw against his stronger opponent.

@tpr said ^

"did he violate the rules?"

So, is it permissible to play out a bishop-versus-knight endgame, depending on the situation? Does it not fall under point 1.5?
And what about a queen-versus-bishop endgame—does that not fall under it either?
In both cases, it is possible to deliver checkmate through legal moves.

@tpr said [^](/forum/redirect/post/L1JWeXIQ) > "did he violate the rules?" So, is it permissible to play out a bishop-versus-knight endgame, depending on the situation? Does it not fall under point 1.5? And what about a queen-versus-bishop endgame—does that not fall under it either? In both cases, it is possible to deliver checkmate through legal moves.