Im having trouble as a d4 player to BEAT the KID. Im not talking about drawing, but either winning against it. So, is there any KID or experienced player who knows some weird lines and/or winning plans?
Thank you.
Im having trouble as a d4 player to BEAT the KID. Im not talking about drawing, but either winning against it. So, is there any KID or experienced player who knows some weird lines and/or winning plans?
Thank you.
The Bayonet Attack 9 b4 refutes the King's Indian Defense.
https://lichess.org/9GmohKPz#17
The Bayonet Attack 9 b4 refutes the King's Indian Defense.
https://lichess.org/9GmohKPz#17
However, 7...Nbd7, 7...ed4, 7...Na6 and the new 7...h6! are there, too. So you will need a few lines more to refute the KID^^
However, 7...Nbd7, 7...ed4, 7...Na6 and the new 7...h6! are there, too. So you will need a few lines more to refute the KID^^
Here is an example with 7...h6
https://lichess.org/maabbcGg#14
Here is an example with 7...h6
https://lichess.org/maabbcGg#14
There is no refutation of the King's Indian. I mostly approach openings from a practical point of view which means how to amateurs approach the opening and in my experience players commit lots of little strategic mistakes especially in positions they are unfamiliar with. If you tweak your move order a bit you make it more likely that your opponent will go astray if they play on auto-pilot which is dangerous in any opening not just the King's Indian.
The Seirawan variation with Bd3 and Nge2 which I saw in Kasparov games although harmless worked well for me in my OTB games. However, there have been changes in how you play these position in modern times as the original plan that Kasparov used with exf5 followed by f4 is not as effective anymore, still it can be dangerous if Black doesn't play dynamic enough.
There is also a Classical/Seirawan Hybrid with Nf3 followed by Bd3 which seems like an awkward combination of the classical and Seirawan but there are some interesting strategic points to them. See some recent games in the database. One of the points is that in positions where you closed the position with d5 you can later retreat your bishop to c2 if it is getting attacked with Nc5. There are more nuances to be aware of for both sides which makes everything more interesting.
It's always about making it practically difficult for opponent's of your level not about the theoretical verdict. You can basically play anything against King's Indian. The same applies to Black. There have been several interesting ideas in the King's Indian as @Sarg0n mentioned. Chess will never be boring, there are always ways to make the positions interesting if you really want to fight.
There is no refutation of the King's Indian. I mostly approach openings from a practical point of view which means how to amateurs approach the opening and in my experience players commit lots of little strategic mistakes especially in positions they are unfamiliar with. If you tweak your move order a bit you make it more likely that your opponent will go astray if they play on auto-pilot which is dangerous in any opening not just the King's Indian.
The Seirawan variation with Bd3 and Nge2 which I saw in Kasparov games although harmless worked well for me in my OTB games. However, there have been changes in how you play these position in modern times as the original plan that Kasparov used with exf5 followed by f4 is not as effective anymore, still it can be dangerous if Black doesn't play dynamic enough.
There is also a Classical/Seirawan Hybrid with Nf3 followed by Bd3 which seems like an awkward combination of the classical and Seirawan but there are some interesting strategic points to them. See some recent games in the database. One of the points is that in positions where you closed the position with d5 you can later retreat your bishop to c2 if it is getting attacked with Nc5. There are more nuances to be aware of for both sides which makes everything more interesting.
It's always about making it practically difficult for opponent's of your level not about the theoretical verdict. You can basically play anything against King's Indian. The same applies to Black. There have been several interesting ideas in the King's Indian as @Sarg0n mentioned. Chess will never be boring, there are always ways to make the positions interesting if you really want to fight.
Practically any line against the KID will get the engine's approval - all that space and all you have to do is play precisely move after move. For humans, that's not easy.
Are you comfortable being attacked? Because black often gets attacking chances in compensation for that space disadvantage. If you are, then the Classical is fine. If not, choose a variation where you can do the attacking like the Saemisch. If you play it by Alekhine's move order 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 f3 you've got a system against both the KID and Gruenfeld. The Grischuk variation 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 h4 is another option against both without a lot of theory.
Practically any line against the KID will get the engine's approval - all that space and all you have to do is play precisely move after move. For humans, that's not easy.
Are you comfortable being attacked? Because black often gets attacking chances in compensation for that space disadvantage. If you are, then the Classical is fine. If not, choose a variation where you can do the attacking like the Saemisch. If you play it by Alekhine's move order 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 f3 you've got a system against both the KID and Gruenfeld. The Grischuk variation 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 h4 is another option against both without a lot of theory.
Isn't that a "bit" delusional to believe as a 1200 player one can refute the KID??
You should instead just learn a practical club player line:
d4,c4,Nc3,Nf3 then 5.e3 in case d6 already happened, otherwise first 5.h3 and after d6 6.e3
since you don't want an e3 Gruenfeld. After 5...d5 instead of 5...d6
6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.e4 is a playable Gruenfeld line.
You play often against a reversed KIA that way.
If they go for c5 instead of Nbd7,e5 you would have to go for d5. The Benoni is still pretty good for white, even a tempo down if played correctly.
If Nbd7,e5 white proceeds with Be2,Qc2,b3 and Bb2 or alternatively b4 at once.
If b3 white should delay castling short since if black closes the center with e4 white wants to castle long instead in some lines and play g4. If black takes on d4 instead of going e4 white does always castle short.
You could instead also learn the Zukertort system but this has a huge drawback: Black can go for d5 or c5 instead of d6 and e5 and is completely fine then. No easy wins!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CwSQC9eFXo
Isn't that a "bit" delusional to believe as a 1200 player one can refute the KID??
You should instead just learn a practical club player line:
d4,c4,Nc3,Nf3 then 5.e3 in case d6 already happened, otherwise first 5.h3 and after d6 6.e3
since you don't want an e3 Gruenfeld. After 5...d5 instead of 5...d6
6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.e4 is a playable Gruenfeld line.
You play often against a reversed KIA that way.
If they go for c5 instead of Nbd7,e5 you would have to go for d5. The Benoni is still pretty good for white, even a tempo down if played correctly.
If Nbd7,e5 white proceeds with Be2,Qc2,b3 and Bb2 or alternatively b4 at once.
If b3 white should delay castling short since if black closes the center with e4 white wants to castle long instead in some lines and play g4. If black takes on d4 instead of going e4 white does always castle short.
You could instead also learn the Zukertort system but this has a huge drawback: Black can go for d5 or c5 instead of d6 and e5 and is completely fine then. No easy wins!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CwSQC9eFXo
@tpr said ^
The Bayonet Attack 9 b4 refutes the King's Indian Defense.
https://lichess.org/9GmohKPz#17
A "refutation" that's ~+1 for the best players in the world playing 90+30 OTB matters, but it doesn't matter for people like us, especially in any time control faster than 20+20.
@tpr said [^](/forum/redirect/post/PZPWjygP)
> The Bayonet Attack 9 b4 refutes the King's Indian Defense.
> https://lichess.org/9GmohKPz#17
A "refutation" that's ~+1 for the best players in the world playing 90+30 OTB matters, but it doesn't matter for people like us, especially in any time control faster than 20+20.
"it doesn't matter for people like us"
- Yes, openings do not matter at all at lower levels.
You can play 1 d4 h6 and do well, you can play 1 c3 and do well.
However, if you ask a theoretical question about the King's Indian Defense, then the answer is the Bayonet Attack.
"it doesn't matter for people like us"
* Yes, openings do not matter at all at lower levels.
You can play 1 d4 h6 and do well, you can play 1 c3 and do well.
However, if you ask a theoretical question about the King's Indian Defense, then the answer is the Bayonet Attack.
You should play the fianchetto variation. It starves black of counterplay and is very frustrating for black to play against, since they often don't get the dynamic attacking potential they get in other lines.
the fianchettoed bishop indirectly protects the e4 pawn, so black playing exd4, Re8, Nc5 etc.. to attack the pawn doesn't work as well as in other lines. the pawn on g3 also prevents black from playing Nh5 -> Nf4, and the bishop protects the kingside from an attack as well. All these things prevent many of black's main attempts at counterplay.
Its also relatively easy to play and not as theoretical compared to the mainlines of the mar de palta, so its very practical as well.
As for your desire to win against the kid, it gives good long term chances since white's queenside initiative is often more potent than black's kingside attack, for the reasons mentioned above. But if you're looking more for an immeadiate initiative against it, I'd recommend 3...h4 to marshall an attack and prevent black's kingside attack by going for one yourself.
You should play the fianchetto variation. It starves black of counterplay and is very frustrating for black to play against, since they often don't get the dynamic attacking potential they get in other lines.
the fianchettoed bishop indirectly protects the e4 pawn, so black playing exd4, Re8, Nc5 etc.. to attack the pawn doesn't work as well as in other lines. the pawn on g3 also prevents black from playing Nh5 -> Nf4, and the bishop protects the kingside from an attack as well. All these things prevent many of black's main attempts at counterplay.
Its also relatively easy to play and not as theoretical compared to the mainlines of the mar de palta, so its very practical as well.
As for your desire to win against the kid, it gives good long term chances since white's queenside initiative is often more potent than black's kingside attack, for the reasons mentioned above. But if you're looking more for an immeadiate initiative against it, I'd recommend 3...h4 to marshall an attack and prevent black's kingside attack by going for one yourself.