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#27: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

I read your blog; and you had some fair points. but I want to add that this comparison isn't fair for side of chess players. If we want to make a more reliable comparison that which game is more complex; we might want to compare Crazyhouse (than chess) with shogi; due to the fact that both have same drop rule. the only problem facing here is that ZH has a considerably low player base.
Next time you go to Japan tell them about ZH ;) let's see who dominates

I read your blog; and you had some fair points. but I want to add that this comparison isn't fair for side of chess players. If we want to make a more reliable comparison that which game is more complex; we might want to compare Crazyhouse (than chess) with shogi; due to the fact that both have same drop rule. the only problem facing here is that ZH has a considerably low player base. Next time you go to Japan tell them about ZH ;) let's see who dominates

9x9 board where the pieces are not as mobile as in chess but most of them can promote!

I did not play a single game, so keep the salting thing nearby, but I went online to figure out the core rules.. some time ago, because of NNue first having been spawned there in concept.

And my impression is that there are a lot of local mobility patterns with subtle variation each (before and after promotion), and lots of generals or lieutenants. My brain would have liquefied trying to play such a game.. Kudos to those who have enough bandwidth, and can see multisteps. It might be that the combinatorial task is so overwhelming, that there is no doubt that the game would be an intuition building game. It took me a year in lichess correspondence candy store, to figure out that even with such digital napking extension of my memory, my working memory (that dispatcher between short term and long term according to one model, or what I got from it) could not juggle the stuff i could put on there to make a judgment... hesitation loop often decided by being tired in the middle of one last try to gather the kittens...

so while in standard chess we can maintain the illusion of calculation for a long time. I think, Shogi might have bypassed such illulsion very early. Same with Go, I have been told.. longer training incubation periods... at least through some article comparing standard chess traditions across the globe. or was it Go itself viewed across the globe. The influx of occidental players bringing some of that chess calculation hope.. i may have blended ideas..

> 9x9 board where the pieces are not as mobile as in chess but most of them can promote! I did not play a single game, so keep the salting thing nearby, but I went online to figure out the core rules.. some time ago, because of NNue first having been spawned there in concept. And my impression is that there are a lot of local mobility patterns with subtle variation each (before and after promotion), and lots of generals or lieutenants. My brain would have liquefied trying to play such a game.. Kudos to those who have enough bandwidth, and can see multisteps. It might be that the combinatorial task is so overwhelming, that there is no doubt that the game would be an intuition building game. It took me a year in lichess correspondence candy store, to figure out that even with such digital napking extension of my memory, my working memory (that dispatcher between short term and long term according to one model, or what I got from it) could not juggle the stuff i could put on there to make a judgment... hesitation loop often decided by being tired in the middle of one last try to gather the kittens... so while in standard chess we can maintain the illusion of calculation for a long time. I think, Shogi might have bypassed such illulsion very early. Same with Go, I have been told.. longer training incubation periods... at least through some article comparing standard chess traditions across the globe. or was it Go itself viewed across the globe. The influx of occidental players bringing some of that chess calculation hope.. i may have blended ideas..

Anybody who is interested in giving shogi a try should go to our sister site, lishogi.org! The playerbase is still small at this time, so there aren't many live games, but it's been slowly picking up steam the last year or two. Just like here, there are tutorials and puzzles, as well as a few variants.

Anybody who is interested in giving shogi a try should go to our sister site, lishogi.org! The playerbase is still small at this time, so there aren't many live games, but it's been slowly picking up steam the last year or two. Just like here, there are tutorials and puzzles, as well as a few variants.

Why is chess not popular and what game is that

Why is chess not popular and what game is that

Aoshima Mirai is the only existing shogi 'pro' (i.e. they play shogi for a living) that still joins tournaments and being overall quite active. I believe according to him he picks up Chess after watching Habu v. Kasaparov in their two rapid game exhibit match.

https://ameblo.jp/mirai-227/entry-12812515559.html?frm=theme

You can read his blog for his commentary on his game.

The other worth mentioning shogi 'pro' would be Moriuchi Toshiyuki, who was very famous in the 00s, has multiple titles but somewhat retired after falling out of Rank A in Junniisen and decleared himself out of the whole Junnisenn. He dips his toes in multiple games including poker, Backgammon and has a FIDE Rating of 2310

Unlike chess, Shogi and Go in Japan has funding from government that promotes the game, much like the state have support programs to promote scholastic chess they have scholastic program to promote shogi and go. Both of these games are usually considered a part of JP Culture (much like Sumo) and has some sort of coverage on popular culture (like anime and stuff). That, plus the arrival of Fuji Shota has boosted the popularity of shogi in Japan a lot - FYI, Fuji Sota wins like 95% of his sente (white) games and wins 70% of his gote (black games), and he never lost any defending any of his title, and he's only 21. Not even Carlsen at his peak has win rates like these.

So overall I don't think it's fair to compare shogi with chess in Japan simply because chess is not connect to any one single traditional culture. There's also the language barrier, as most of the material for chess is in English.

From what I saw on youtube I think a lot of chess player in Japan starts with shogi and moves to chess.

Aoshima Mirai is the only existing shogi 'pro' (i.e. they play shogi for a living) that still joins tournaments and being overall quite active. I believe according to him he picks up Chess after watching Habu v. Kasaparov in their two rapid game exhibit match. https://ameblo.jp/mirai-227/entry-12812515559.html?frm=theme You can read his blog for his commentary on his game. The other worth mentioning shogi 'pro' would be Moriuchi Toshiyuki, who was very famous in the 00s, has multiple titles but somewhat retired after falling out of Rank A in Junniisen and decleared himself out of the whole Junnisenn. He dips his toes in multiple games including poker, Backgammon and has a FIDE Rating of 2310 Unlike chess, Shogi and Go in Japan has funding from government that promotes the game, much like the state have support programs to promote scholastic chess they have scholastic program to promote shogi and go. Both of these games are usually considered a part of JP Culture (much like Sumo) and has some sort of coverage on popular culture (like anime and stuff). That, plus the arrival of Fuji Shota has boosted the popularity of shogi in Japan a lot - FYI, Fuji Sota wins like 95% of his sente (white) games and wins 70% of his gote (black games), and he never lost any defending any of his title, and he's only 21. Not even Carlsen at his peak has win rates like these. So overall I don't think it's fair to compare shogi with chess in Japan simply because chess is not connect to any one single traditional culture. There's also the language barrier, as most of the material for chess is in English. From what I saw on youtube I think a lot of chess player in Japan starts with shogi and moves to chess.

@MrLizardWizard said in #4:

Anybody who is interested in giving shogi a try should go to our sister site, lishogi.org!

Exactly where I went for discovering the rules, it has something in the same spirit as lichess learning set of features. At least all the rules of mobility and pieces.. with same familiar UI about board manipulation and behavior (if memory serves).

The instant figure of mobility upon touching a piece with mouse, comes handy, given the differences mentioned.

@MrLizardWizard said in #4: > Anybody who is interested in giving shogi a try should go to our sister site, lishogi.org! Exactly where I went for discovering the rules, it has something in the same spirit as lichess learning set of features. At least all the rules of mobility and pieces.. with same familiar UI about board manipulation and behavior (if memory serves). The instant figure of mobility upon touching a piece with mouse, comes handy, given the differences mentioned.

@abce said in #6:

...Fuji Sota wins like 95% of his sente (white) games and wins 70% of his gote (black games), and he never lost any defending any of his title, and he's only 21. Not even Carlsen at his peak has win rates like these.

I think it's not entirely correct to compare Fuji Sota with Carlsen. Not only because Shogi is much more complex than Chess, but simply because Sota is a phenomenon that goes beyond human intelligence.

@abce said in #6: > ...Fuji Sota wins like 95% of his sente (white) games and wins 70% of his gote (black games), and he never lost any defending any of his title, and he's only 21. Not even Carlsen at his peak has win rates like these. I think it's not entirely correct to compare Fuji Sota with Carlsen. Not only because Shogi is much more complex than Chess, but simply because Sota is a phenomenon that goes beyond human intelligence.

They are serious people, .... the people there aim to improve their country's economy. Though they are a small country (in size), and with very small natural resources ... (and no colonial acquired wealth) they are among the richest country in the world.

They are serious people, .... the people there aim to improve their country's economy. Though they are a small country (in size), and with very small natural resources ... (and no colonial acquired wealth) they are among the richest country in the world.

@abce said in #6:

Thank you for your glimpse tour of some information about that game "scene" or community.
I respond here more about the comparison part of your post. But maybe with some influence from the rest of it.

The reverse of language barrier is also true. I could not find anything in english or french about GO or even shogi that much, that might be about more than the core rules. Theory shared? As we may have books of chess theory (which is not about calculations, and which now is looked back for some as part of a school of thought dynamic, at community level). I would be curious about public documentation on the net.. Would AI translation of nowadays help.
I think it might, if we had pointers. but interactive cogent search and translation speed/quality, might not help.

I am interested, mainly as game system objects that A0 might have considered same thing, not as player. to compare theories, and attempts at theories. and what is strategy in different game cultures. I also need to translate for my own understanding, all the GO based A0 and lc0, algorithm explanations, as they have been, for the crucial part still giving me problems, on GO. I would like to figure out is some of the explanation support changes things because of GO being the visual support, and game tree basis of those explanations. Really my problem.. What kind of transpositions might exist in Go.. since the basic rules are so local, I am not sure I would get from them what is really at stake in the 2 players decisions.. I just know it is about territory boundaries. but not how the board position versus move descriptions might affect the statistic explanation for monte-carlo type methods.. This last paragraph is optional reading. full disclosure of my motivation. beyond just being curious as anyone else. who likes such board games..

@abce said in #6: > Thank you for your glimpse tour of some information about that game "scene" or community. I respond here more about the comparison part of your post. But maybe with some influence from the rest of it. The reverse of language barrier is also true. I could not find anything in english or french about GO or even shogi that much, that might be about more than the core rules. Theory shared? As we may have books of chess theory (which is not about calculations, and which now is looked back for some as part of a school of thought dynamic, at community level). I would be curious about public documentation on the net.. Would AI translation of nowadays help. I think it might, if we had pointers. but interactive cogent search and translation speed/quality, might not help. I am interested, mainly as game system objects that A0 might have considered same thing, not as player. to compare theories, and attempts at theories. and what is strategy in different game cultures. I also need to translate for my own understanding, all the GO based A0 and lc0, algorithm explanations, as they have been, for the crucial part still giving me problems, on GO. I would like to figure out is some of the explanation support changes things because of GO being the visual support, and game tree basis of those explanations. Really my problem.. What kind of transpositions might exist in Go.. since the basic rules are so local, I am not sure I would get from them what is really at stake in the 2 players decisions.. I just know it is about territory boundaries. but not how the board position versus move descriptions might affect the statistic explanation for monte-carlo type methods.. This last paragraph is optional reading. full disclosure of my motivation. beyond just being curious as anyone else. who likes such board games..