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Timeout vs. Insufficient Material - A Deeper Dive

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@FadingEmber said in #10:

You lost because technically there is still material to checkmate you. While there is obvoiusly no way to win the game for either side (and according to the FIDE rules this is a draw), it's basically impossible to have these kind of cases evaluated correctly.
That's why lichess uses the insufficient material method: it's simple, has clear rules and while unfortunate, these edge cases are so rare that it evaluates only a very low fraction of games incorrectly.

Actually, this is incorrect. Lichess in essence applies FIDE rules, or at least tries to. And those rules don't consider 'mating material' at all.

Creating an algorithm that does this correctly can be tricky. I would consider the example given a bug in Lichess, rather than anything else.

@FadingEmber said in #10: > You lost because technically there is still material to checkmate you. While there is obvoiusly no way to win the game for either side (and according to the FIDE rules this is a draw), it's basically impossible to have these kind of cases evaluated correctly. > That's why lichess uses the insufficient material method: it's simple, has clear rules and while unfortunate, these edge cases are so rare that it evaluates only a very low fraction of games incorrectly. Actually, this is incorrect. Lichess in essence applies FIDE rules, or at least tries to. And those rules don't consider 'mating material' at all. Creating an algorithm that does this correctly can be tricky. I would consider the example given a bug in Lichess, rather than anything else.

As it is generally considered that neither player, from the stating position, can force a checkmate without the other player's cooperation, would this mean that if either player just lets the clock run out on move one, that can force a draw according to USCF rules? I don't think so.

By the way, Lichess has declared draws when flagging against a lone pawn on the a or h file, which appears to be inconsistent with FIDE rules.

As it is generally considered that neither player, from the stating position, can force a checkmate without the other player's cooperation, would this mean that if either player just lets the clock run out on move one, that can force a draw according to USCF rules? I don't think so. By the way, Lichess has declared draws when flagging against a lone pawn on the a or h file, which appears to be inconsistent with FIDE rules.

@Ramen_Eater said in #13:

As it is generally considered that neither player, from the stating position, can force a checkmate without the other player's cooperation, would this mean that if either player just lets the clock run out on move one, that can force a draw according to USCF rules? I don't think so.

No. The rule is about possible mate, not possible forced mate. Whether or not it's forced is completely irrelevant. Even the most unlikely possible helpmate will suffice.

By the way, Lichess has declared draws when flagging against a lone pawn on the a or h file, which appears to be inconsistent with FIDE rules.

Do you have an example of this? It sounds weird.

@Ramen_Eater said in #13: > As it is generally considered that neither player, from the stating position, can force a checkmate without the other player's cooperation, would this mean that if either player just lets the clock run out on move one, that can force a draw according to USCF rules? I don't think so. No. The rule is about possible mate, not possible forced mate. Whether or not it's forced is completely irrelevant. Even the most unlikely possible helpmate will suffice. > By the way, Lichess has declared draws when flagging against a lone pawn on the a or h file, which appears to be inconsistent with FIDE rules. Do you have an example of this? It sounds weird.

@Molurus said in #14:

No. The rule is about possible mate, not possible forced mate. Whether or not it's forced is completely irrelevant. Even the most unlikely possible helpmate will suffice.

Yes, just to clarify that for USCF you have to be able to mate with your own pieces. If your pieces do not constitute sufficient mating material on their own (that is, against a lone king), then it will not be declared a win. Sorry if I have not made this clear.

@Molurus said in #14: > No. The rule is about possible mate, not possible forced mate. Whether or not it's forced is completely irrelevant. Even the most unlikely possible helpmate will suffice. Yes, just to clarify that for USCF you have to be able to mate with your own pieces. If your pieces do not constitute sufficient mating material on their own (that is, against a lone king), then it will not be declared a win. Sorry if I have not made this clear.

@Molurus said in #14:

Do you have an example of this? It sounds weird.

https://lichess.org/LYZkKp3U

Actually, no time flag, it was simply declared a draw by Lichess.

@Molurus said in #14: > Do you have an example of this? It sounds weird. https://lichess.org/LYZkKp3U Actually, no time flag, it was simply declared a draw by Lichess.

This isn’t directly related to the main topic, but I recently learned that if you offer a draw when your opponent has insufficient material, it’s automatically accepted without asking to the opponent in lichess.

This isn’t directly related to the main topic, but I recently learned that if you offer a draw when your opponent has insufficient material, it’s automatically accepted without asking to the opponent in lichess.

@Ramen_Eater said in #16:

Actually, no time flag, it was simply declared a draw by Lichess.

At the very least this looks strange. Usually the reason for draw is mentioned. Repetition, 50 move rule, agreement. None of that here.

But the most reasonable explantion is that you did run out of time. (there is 0.13 seconds on your clock). If you did, this is draw according to FIDE, because black cannot win from this position. Not even with an unlikely helpmate.

@Ramen_Eater said in #16: > Actually, no time flag, it was simply declared a draw by Lichess. At the very least this looks strange. Usually the reason for draw is mentioned. Repetition, 50 move rule, agreement. None of that here. But the most reasonable explantion is that you did run out of time. (there is 0.13 seconds on your clock). If you did, this is draw according to FIDE, because black cannot win from this position. Not even with an unlikely helpmate.

@Lamiales said in #17:

This isn’t directly related to the main topic, but I recently learned that if you offer a draw when your opponent has insufficient material, it’s automatically accepted without asking to the opponent in lichess.

This is another plausible explanation for the given example, yes. It's a pity the reason for draw isn't actually mentioned.

@Lamiales said in #17: > This isn’t directly related to the main topic, but I recently learned that if you offer a draw when your opponent has insufficient material, it’s automatically accepted without asking to the opponent in lichess. This is another plausible explanation for the given example, yes. It's a pity the reason for draw isn't actually mentioned.

I just want to say that the FIDE rule is batchit crazy. Relying on someone to smother their king when you only have a bishop and king left if just Donkey Kong crazy. Dumb rule. USCF has a much simpler and effective way.

I just want to say that the FIDE rule is batchit crazy. Relying on someone to smother their king when you only have a bishop and king left if just Donkey Kong crazy. Dumb rule. USCF has a much simpler and effective way.