@kindaspongey said ^
... why 51 Kg 4? ...
@aVague said in #9:
I don't mind Kg4 for white, I didn't mentioned that move,
Everyone can see that you mentioned 51 Kg4 in your question, approximately 3 hours ago.
@aVague said in #9:
all I mention is that leads for exchange rook for knight , that's all, without clean rook win for black
The machine apparently considers 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 K...
Lol no, a bishop vs rook with 3 vs 3 pawns , is that "bad" . that SF considers not to take a knight ? really? I see th opposite
@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/JKH8Ds0q)
> > ... why 51 Kg 4? ...
>
> @aVague said in #9:
> > I don't mind Kg4 for white, I didn't mentioned that move,
>
> Everyone can see that you mentioned 51 Kg4 in your question, approximately 3 hours ago.
>
> @aVague said in #9:
> > all I mention is that leads for exchange rook for knight , that's all, without clean rook win for black
>
> The machine apparently considers 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 K...
Lol no, a bishop vs rook with 3 vs 3 pawns , is that "bad" . that SF considers not to take a knight ? really? I see th opposite
@kindaspongey said in #10:
... The machine apparently considers 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3 Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 to be such a bad position for White, that it thinks White might plausibly choose something like 52 Kh4 instead of 52 Bxg3. In the event of something like
49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Kh4 Nf5+, I suppose that it might be considered that Black won a "clean rook".
@aVague said in #11:
... Lol no, a bishop vs rook with 3 vs 3 pawns , is that "bad" . that SF considers not to take a knight ? really? I see th opposite [49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3 f5+] ...
The thing is that, after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can continue with 52...Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 and it really is "bad" for White. If you have any doubt about this, just try to come up with a 54th move for White. We can play it out if you like and you will soon see that White is dead lost.
Indeed, White is dead lost after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 followed by ANY possible White 52nd move. From a machine point of view, 52 Bxg3, 52 Kh4, 52 d5+, 52 h4, etc. are all losers, and the particular choice by the machine is going to be somewhat random. YOU may think that 52 Bxg3 is obviously best, but you are a human. (You are, aren't you?) To the machine, the alternatives are just alternative ways to lose.
@kindaspongey said in #10:
> ... The machine apparently considers 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3 Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 to be such a bad position for White, that it thinks White might plausibly choose something like 52 Kh4 instead of 52 Bxg3. In the event of something like
> 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Kh4 Nf5+, I suppose that it might be considered that Black won a "clean rook".
@aVague said in #11:
> ... Lol no, a bishop vs rook with 3 vs 3 pawns , is that "bad" . that SF considers not to take a knight ? really? I see th opposite [49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3 f5+] ...
The thing is that, after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can continue with 52...Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 and it really is "bad" for White. If you have any doubt about this, just try to come up with a 54th move for White. We can play it out if you like and you will soon see that White is dead lost.
Indeed, White is dead lost after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 followed by ANY possible White 52nd move. From a machine point of view, 52 Bxg3, 52 Kh4, 52 d5+, 52 h4, etc. are all losers, and the particular choice by the machine is going to be somewhat random. YOU may think that 52 Bxg3 is obviously best, but you are a human. (You are, aren't you?) To the machine, the alternatives are just alternative ways to lose.
@kindaspongey said ^
... The machine apparently considers 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3 Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 to be such a bad position for White, that it thinks White might plausibly choose something like 52 Kh4 instead of 52 Bxg3. In the event of something like
49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Kh4 Nf5+, I suppose that it might be considered that Black won a "clean rook".
@...
of course they can, it's obvious move all players 1600+ know, of course position is bad, but what s the point not taking a piece and making it worse for white? and besides, to take a bishop with check isn't SF main line
@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/arHiscst)
> > ... The machine apparently considers 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3 Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 to be such a bad position for White, that it thinks White might plausibly choose something like 52 Kh4 instead of 52 Bxg3. In the event of something like
> > 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Kh4 Nf5+, I suppose that it might be considered that Black won a "clean rook".
>
> @...
of course they can, it's obvious move all players 1600+ know, of course position is bad, but what s the point not taking a piece and making it worse for white? and besides, to take a bishop with check isn't SF main line
@kindaspongey said in #12:
... The thing is that, after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can continue with 52...Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 and it really is "bad" for White. If you have any doubt about this, just try to come up with a 54th move for White. We can play it out if you like and you will soon see that White is dead lost.
Indeed, White is dead lost after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 followed by ANY possible White 52nd move. From a machine point of view, 52 Bxg3, 52 Kh4, 52 d5+, 52 h4, etc. are all losers, and the particular choice by the machine is going to be somewhat random. YOU may think that 52 Bxg3 is obviously best, but you are a human. (You are, aren't you?) To the machine, the alternatives are just alternative ways to lose.
@aVague said in #13:
... of course they can, it's obvious move all players 1600+ know, of course position is bad, but what s the point not taking a piece and making it worse for white?
A machine doesn't see "the point" in the same way that a human does. From a machine point of view, 52 Bxg3 is just one of the ways to lose.
@aVague said in #13:
and besides, to take a bishop with check isn't SF main line
It is somewhat the same idea from Black's point of view. After 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can win with 52...Rxg3 or 52...f5+ or 52...Rd3 or ...
@kindaspongey said in #12:
> ... The thing is that, after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can continue with 52...Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 and it really is "bad" for White. If you have any doubt about this, just try to come up with a 54th move for White. We can play it out if you like and you will soon see that White is dead lost.
>
> Indeed, White is dead lost after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 followed by ANY possible White 52nd move. From a machine point of view, 52 Bxg3, 52 Kh4, 52 d5+, 52 h4, etc. are all losers, and the particular choice by the machine is going to be somewhat random. YOU may think that 52 Bxg3 is obviously best, but you are a human. (You are, aren't you?) To the machine, the alternatives are just alternative ways to lose.
@aVague said in #13:
> ... of course they can, it's obvious move all players 1600+ know, of course position is bad, but what s the point not taking a piece and making it worse for white?
A machine doesn't see "the point" in the same way that a human does. From a machine point of view, 52 Bxg3 is just one of the ways to lose.
@aVague said in #13:
> and besides, to take a bishop with check isn't SF main line
It is somewhat the same idea from Black's point of view. After 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can win with 52...Rxg3 or 52...f5+ or 52...Rd3 or ...
@aVague said ^
... why 51 Kg 4? ...
@aVague said in #9:
I don't mind Kg4 for white, I didn't mentioned that move,
Everyone can see that you mentioned 51 Kg4 in your question, approximately 3 hours ago.
@aVague said in #9:
all I mention is that leads for exchange rook for knight , that's all, without clean rook win for black
The...
@kindaspongey said ^
... The thing is that, after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can continue with 52...Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 and it really is "bad" for White. If you have any doubt about this, just try to come up with a 54th move for White. We can play it out if you like and you will soon see that White is dead lost.
Indeed, White is dead lost after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5...
it sees point as My screeshot shows. Sometimes it makes moves that seems deadly to it due mate threats, but they are actually reasonable, they allow to continue game a little longer, but here are no otherworly reason not to take a piece, because it doesn't make a game longer in any way
@aVague said [^](/forum/redirect/post/Q2XKt5MY)
> > > ... why 51 Kg 4? ...
> >
> > @aVague said in #9:
> > > I don't mind Kg4 for white, I didn't mentioned that move,
> >
> > Everyone can see that you mentioned 51 Kg4 in your question, approximately 3 hours ago.
> >
> > @aVague said in #9:
> > > all I mention is that leads for exchange rook for knight , that's all, without clean rook win for black
> >
> > The...
@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/wutDB77x)
> > ... The thing is that, after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3 52 Bxg3, Black can continue with 52...Rxg3+ 53 Kxg3 Kd5 and it really is "bad" for White. If you have any doubt about this, just try to come up with a 54th move for White. We can play it out if you like and you will soon see that White is dead lost.
> >
> > Indeed, White is dead lost after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5...
it sees point as My screeshot shows. Sometimes it makes moves that seems deadly to it due mate threats, but they are actually reasonable, they allow to continue game a little longer, but here are no otherworly reason not to take a piece, because it doesn't make a game longer in any way
@kindaspongey said ^
49...f5#
Were is win rook? Rxg3 Bxg3 its not win rook.
@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/NDqv3GHv)
> 49...f5#
Were is win rook? Rxg3 Bxg3 its not win rook.
@aVague said in #15:
it sees point as My screeshot shows.
Your screen shows that 52 Bxg3 is one of the ways to lose after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3.
@aVague said in #15:
Sometimes it makes moves that seems deadly to it due mate threats, but they are actually reasonable, they allow to continue game a little longer, but here are no otherworly reason not to take a piece, because it doesn't make a game longer in any way
Machines do not necessarily choose the longest lasting possibility.
@RemRus said in #16:
... Were is win rook? Rxg3 Bxg3 its not win rook.
For White, the machine priority is to avoid losing. After 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3, there is no way to not lose. 52 Bxg3, 52 Kh4, 52 d5+, 52 h4, etc. are all losers.
@aVague said in #15:
> it sees point as My screeshot shows.
Your screen shows that 52 Bxg3 is one of the ways to lose after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3.
@aVague said in #15:
> Sometimes it makes moves that seems deadly to it due mate threats, but they are actually reasonable, they allow to continue game a little longer, but here are no otherworly reason not to take a piece, because it doesn't make a game longer in any way
Machines do not necessarily choose the longest lasting possibility.
@RemRus said in #16:
> ... Were is win rook? Rxg3 Bxg3 its not win rook.
For White, the machine priority is to avoid losing. After 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3, there is no way to not lose. 52 Bxg3, 52 Kh4, 52 d5+, 52 h4, etc. are all losers.
@kindaspongey said ^
it sees point as My screeshot shows.
Your screen shows that 52 Bxg3 is one of the ways to lose after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3.
@aVague said in #15:
Sometimes it makes moves that seems deadly to it due mate threats, but they are actually reasonable, they allow to continue game a little longer, but here are no otherworly reason not to take a piece, because it does...
not only to avoid losing- to make game as long as it can, and without a free piece it will always be shortened
@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/28bMASRX)
> > it sees point as My screeshot shows.
>
> Your screen shows that 52 Bxg3 is one of the ways to lose after 49...Nf6+ 50 Kf4 Nh5+ 51 Kg4 Nxg3.
>
> @aVague said in #15:
> > Sometimes it makes moves that seems deadly to it due mate threats, but they are actually reasonable, they allow to continue game a little longer, but here are no otherworly reason not to take a piece, because it does...
not only to avoid losing- to make game as long as it can, and without a free piece it will always be shortened
@kindaspongey said in #17:
... For White, the machine priority is to avoid losing. ...
@aVague said in #18:
... not only to avoid losing- to make game as long as it can, ...
Something like that is going to be a secondary priority. The machine isn't necessarily going to put time into the rigorous determination of survival times if it potentially takes time away from the search for good moves (or just annoys users waiting for a machine conclusion).
[Event "rated blitz game"] [Site "https://lichess.org/game/Gyi3kLAB"] [Date "2026.10.24"] [White "cakicikagan"] [Variant "Standard"] [TimeControl "180+2"] [Annotator "lichess.org"] 49. Ke4?? (-0.54 --> Mate in 1) Checkmate is now unavoidable.
@kindaspongey said in #17:
> ... For White, the machine priority is to avoid losing. ...
@aVague said in #18:
> ... not only to avoid losing- to make game as long as it can, ...
Something like that is going to be a secondary priority. The machine isn't necessarily going to put time into the rigorous determination of survival times if it potentially takes time away from the search for good moves (or just annoys users waiting for a machine conclusion).
[Event "rated blitz game"] [Site "https://lichess.org/game/Gyi3kLAB"] [Date "2026.10.24"] [White "cakicikagan"] [Variant "Standard"] [TimeControl "180+2"] [Annotator "lichess.org"] 49. Ke4?? (-0.54 --> Mate in 1) Checkmate is now unavoidable.
@kindaspongey said ^
... For White, the machine priority is to avoid losing. ...
@aVague said in #18:
... not only to avoid losing- to make game as long as it can, ...
Something like that is going to be a secondary priority. The machine isn't necessarily going to put time into the rigorous determination of survival times if it potentially takes time away from the search for good moves ...
look, I know that, I don't suggest and saw it many times. it's because best moves make it longer by their defenition of best obvious, because they are best, consequence is that they make it longer, and there is no other way due logic rules
@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/vPFL2OSS)
> > ... For White, the machine priority is to avoid losing. ...
>
> @aVague said in #18:
> > ... not only to avoid losing- to make game as long as it can, ...
>
> Something like that is going to be a secondary priority. The machine isn't necessarily going to put time into the rigorous determination of survival times if it potentially takes time away from the search for good moves ...
look, I know that, I don't suggest and saw it many times. it's because best moves make it longer by their defenition of best obvious, because they are best, consequence is that they make it longer, and there is no other way due logic rules
