lichess.org
Donate

Is carokann or sicillian better?

I lost a guy in FIDE tournament using caro-kan but I won another guy using Sicillian.

I lost a guy in FIDE tournament using caro-kan but I won another guy using Sicillian.

"... For players with very limited experience, ... the Sicilian Defence ... normally leaves you with little room to manoeuvre and is best left until your positional skills develop. ... I'm still not excited about my students playing the Sicilian Defence at [the stage where they have a moderate level of experience and some opening competence], because it almost always means playing with less space and development, and in some cases with exotic and not particularly instructive pawn-structures. ... if you're taking the Sicilian up at [say, 1700 Elo and above], you should put in a lot of serious study time, as well as commit to playing it for a few years. ..." - IM John Watson in a section of his 2010 book, Mastering the Chess Openings, Volume 4
"... With Black only the [1...e5] defense should be adopted on [1 e4]. ... As a rule [defenses which do not begin with 1...e5] are more complicated and require a greater knowledge of position play. ... none can be recommended for the inexperienced player, ..." - Chess the Easy Way by Reuben Fine (1941) by GM Reuben Fine

"... For players with very limited experience, ... the Sicilian Defence ... normally leaves you with little room to manoeuvre and is best left until your positional skills develop. ... I'm still not excited about my students playing the Sicilian Defence at [the stage where they have a moderate level of experience and some opening competence], because it almost always means playing with less space and development, and in some cases with exotic and not particularly instructive pawn-structures. ... if you're taking the Sicilian up at [say, 1700 Elo and above], you should put in a lot of serious study time, as well as commit to playing it for a few years. ..." - IM John Watson in a section of his 2010 book, Mastering the Chess Openings, Volume 4 "... With Black only the [1...e5] defense should be adopted on [1 e4]. ... As a rule [defenses which do not begin with 1...e5] are more complicated and require a greater knowledge of position play. ... none can be recommended for the inexperienced player, ..." - Chess the Easy Way by Reuben Fine (1941) by GM Reuben Fine

@kindaspongey said ^

With Black only the [1...e5] defense should be adopted on [1 e4]. ... As a rule [defenses which do not begin with 1...e5] are more complicated and require a greater knowledge of position play. ... none can be recommended for the inexperienced player, ..."

In my personal experience 1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits.

@kindaspongey said [^](/forum/redirect/post/bf5XKbqd) > With Black only the [1...e5] defense should be adopted on [1 e4]. ... As a rule [defenses which do not begin with 1...e5] are more complicated and require a greater knowledge of position play. ... none can be recommended for the inexperienced player, ..." In my personal experience 1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits.

@alijeba said in #3:

... In my personal experience 1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits.

I have a lot of sympathy for that point of view, and I have to confess that I myself opted for 1...c6. Still, I keep thinking of this advice:
"... A beginner should avoid the Queen's Gambit and the French Defense and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by acquiring a thorough knowledge of the game. ...
... A position is called open after some of the center pawns have been exchanged, so that the pieces command open lines. The openings beginning with [1.e4 e5] are more apt than others to lead to open positions, since as a rule [d4] and exchange of center pawns will follow. On the other hand it is obviously more difficult to carry out the move [e4] after [1.d4], inasmuch as the [e4-square] is originally unprotected. This is the reason why [d-pawn] openings as a rule lead to closed positions. ..." - Richard Réti (~1929)
https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Chessboard-21st-Century-Richard/dp/1936490218?asin=B006ZQISDY&revisionId=f4836601&format=3&depth=1
Variations of that advice have been made for decades, but, in view of my own choice, I can't really blame someone for choosing to pass up the educational experience associated with 1...e5.
One point in favor of 1 e4 e5: I think that there is a particularly large amount of available material to help the inexperienced player with that choice.
"... As [First Steps: 1 e4 e5 is] a First Steps book, I’ve tried to avoid encyclopaedic coverage. In any case, you certainly don’t need to remember every single variation and all the notes before playing the opening. Take in the first few moves and the key ideas, and then try it out in your games! ..." - GM John Emms (2018)
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7790.pdf
Also, one does not have to undertake to learn everything at once.
"... Review each of your games, identifying opening (and other) mistakes with the goal of not repeatedly making the same mistake. ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2007)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627062646/https://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman81.pdf
Also, I suspect that, from variation to variation, a lot of the same ideas recur:
replying to d4 with ...exd4,
playing ...d5 at an opportune moment,
watching out for a Bxf7+ sacrifice,
etc.

@alijeba said in #3: > ... In my personal experience 1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits. I have a lot of sympathy for that point of view, and I have to confess that I myself opted for 1...c6. Still, I keep thinking of this advice: "... A beginner should avoid the Queen's Gambit and the French Defense and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by acquiring a thorough knowledge of the game. ... ... A position is called open after some of the center pawns have been exchanged, so that the pieces command open lines. The openings beginning with [1.e4 e5] are more apt than others to lead to open positions, since as a rule [d4] and exchange of center pawns will follow. On the other hand it is obviously more difficult to carry out the move [e4] after [1.d4], inasmuch as the [e4-square] is originally unprotected. This is the reason why [d-pawn] openings as a rule lead to closed positions. ..." - Richard Réti (~1929) https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Chessboard-21st-Century-Richard/dp/1936490218?asin=B006ZQISDY&revisionId=f4836601&format=3&depth=1 Variations of that advice have been made for decades, but, in view of my own choice, I can't really blame someone for choosing to pass up the educational experience associated with 1...e5. One point in favor of 1 e4 e5: I think that there is a particularly large amount of available material to help the inexperienced player with that choice. "... As [First Steps: 1 e4 e5 is] a First Steps book, I’ve tried to avoid encyclopaedic coverage. In any case, you certainly don’t need to remember every single variation and all the notes before playing the opening. Take in the first few moves and the key ideas, and then try it out in your games! ..." - GM John Emms (2018) https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7790.pdf Also, one does not have to undertake to learn everything at once. "... Review each of your games, identifying opening (and other) mistakes with the goal of not repeatedly making the same mistake. ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2007) https://web.archive.org/web/20140627062646/https://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman81.pdf Also, I suspect that, from variation to variation, a lot of the same ideas recur: replying to d4 with ...exd4, playing ...d5 at an opportune moment, watching out for a Bxf7+ sacrifice, etc.

"1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits."

  • You do not need knowledge, you need to think.
    If a gambit is dubious, then you can get a good position without knowledge.
"1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits." * You do not need knowledge, you need to think. If a gambit is dubious, then you can get a good position without knowledge.

Have you tried playing both in one game?
Place the pawn on the edge between c6 and c5. Depending on your opponent's reply, you can say where the pawn was! In fact, the most common reply to the Caro-Kann is 2 d4 which is the less testing Smith-Morra gambit against the Sicilian.
In the 1959 candidates, Bobby Fischer was doing badly against the Caro-Kann as white. Mikhail Tal pretended to slide his pawn to c6, looked at Bobby, then pushed the pawn further to c5.

Have you tried playing both in one game? Place the pawn on the edge between c6 and c5. Depending on your opponent's reply, you can say where the pawn was! In fact, the most common reply to the Caro-Kann is 2 d4 which is the less testing Smith-Morra gambit against the Sicilian. In the 1959 candidates, Bobby Fischer was doing badly against the Caro-Kann as white. Mikhail Tal pretended to slide his pawn to c6, looked at Bobby, then pushed the pawn further to c5.

1...e5 > 1...c5 > 1...e6 > 1...c6

1...e5 > 1...c5 > 1...e6 > 1...c6

@tpr said in #5:

"1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits."

  • You do not need knowledge, you need to think.
    If a gambit is dubious, then you can get a good position without knowledge.

"... many of the lines one sees played at club level are gambits, which lead to the kind of exciting open play that many players find attractive. ... Openings such as the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit, Albin Counter-Gambit, Latvian Gambit, etc., are all played regularly at club and league level, ... there is much to be said for playing such systems at lower levels of play, particularly if you enjoy playing sharp attacking lines. Many players find it uncomfortable to defend against an opponent who is prepared to sacrifice material in return for speculative attacking chances. In such positions, the cost of a single error is much higher than in quieter openings. If you make a mistake in a typical Réti Opening middlegame, you may end up getting a small positional disadvantage, but if you make a similar mistake in the sort of wild tactical positions which often arise from gambits, you are quite likely to find yourself being mated, or losing a substantial amount of material.
...
... the biggest problem with such offbeat lines, especially the gambits, is that objectively they are not fully sound. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2003)

@tpr said in #5: > "1...e5 defenses require to much knowledge of dubious gambits." > * You do not need knowledge, you need to think. > If a gambit is dubious, then you can get a good position without knowledge. "... many of the lines one sees played at club level are gambits, which lead to the kind of exciting open play that many players find attractive. ... Openings such as the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit, Albin Counter-Gambit, Latvian Gambit, etc., are all played regularly at club and league level, ... there is much to be said for playing such systems at lower levels of play, particularly if you enjoy playing sharp attacking lines. Many players find it uncomfortable to defend against an opponent who is prepared to sacrifice material in return for speculative attacking chances. In such positions, the cost of a single error is much higher than in quieter openings. If you make a mistake in a typical Réti Opening middlegame, you may end up getting a small positional disadvantage, but if you make a similar mistake in the sort of wild tactical positions which often arise from gambits, you are quite likely to find yourself being mated, or losing a substantial amount of material. ... ... the biggest problem with such offbeat lines, especially the gambits, is that objectively they are not fully sound. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2003)

@JYLee115 said ^

I lost a guy in FIDE tournament using caro-kan but I won another guy using Sicillian.

One "L"... S-I-C-I-L-I-A-N

@JYLee115 said [^](/forum/redirect/post/VGQYa7cK) > I lost a guy in FIDE tournament using caro-kan but I won another guy using Sicillian. One "L"... S-I-C-I-L-I-A-N

Both are great openings. The Sicilian is more complicated, but has consistently been better.

Both are great openings. The Sicilian is more complicated, but has consistently been better.

This topic has been archived and can no longer be replied to.