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why are there different titles per gender

It's a sensitive topic yes and quite a few GMs have spoken politically incorrectly on the topic. My opinion is that if "correctness" must be qualified with any kind of adjective (and ESPECIALLY if that adjective is "political"), whatever you're saying probably isn't it.

The FIDE top 100 list only has one woman on it currently. 1%. However, 11% of FIDE members are women. That's a huge disparity, and one can hardly write it off to some kind of misogyny or systemic problems. What we instead have to understand is how distribution curves work, and the very real gender difference that occur in distribution curves for things like IQ and Big Five personality traits.

Particularly applicable to chess is the IQ score, particularly on spatial/relational components. Both genders have approximately the same mean, but the biggest difference between genders is in the STANDARD DEVIATION. Men have a standard deviation about 7.3% higher than women (14.54 compared to 13.55). This does not sound like much, but at the extremes of the scale (both high and low), this has HUGE implications. Again, returning to the IQ example, assuming that 100 is the mean for both genders, 3 standard deviations above that for men is 143.62. This puts it at the 99.865 percentile. That same value, 143.62, is 3.22 standard deviations above the mean for women, putting it at the 99.963 percentile.

So 0.135% of men will be at or above this value, but only 0.037% of women. Put another way, with an equal population, there will be about 3.6 times as many men at or above that level than there are women. As we move further up the distribution, that difference continues to increase.

Not to sound like I'm some kind of male supremacist, the same occurs when you go towards the LOW end of the distribution. There will be several times more men below a certain threshold than there are women.

This, combined with a lower female membership, is why only 1% of the top 100 are women. This is why there are separate women's titles and separate women's divisions in chess.

(Note: For the purposes of illustration, I used a normal or Gaussian distribution formula. The actual distribution of scores like IQ and Elo ratings can be approximated by this distribution reasonably well; well enough that the conclusions hold.)

It's a sensitive topic yes and quite a few GMs have spoken politically incorrectly on the topic. My opinion is that if "correctness" must be qualified with any kind of adjective (and ESPECIALLY if that adjective is "political"), whatever you're saying probably isn't it. The FIDE top 100 list only has one woman on it currently. 1%. However, 11% of FIDE members are women. That's a huge disparity, and one can hardly write it off to some kind of misogyny or systemic problems. What we instead have to understand is how distribution curves work, and the very real gender difference that occur in distribution curves for things like IQ and Big Five personality traits. Particularly applicable to chess is the IQ score, particularly on spatial/relational components. Both genders have approximately the same mean, but the biggest difference between genders is in the STANDARD DEVIATION. Men have a standard deviation about 7.3% higher than women (14.54 compared to 13.55). This does not sound like much, but at the extremes of the scale (both high and low), this has HUGE implications. Again, returning to the IQ example, assuming that 100 is the mean for both genders, 3 standard deviations above that for men is 143.62. This puts it at the 99.865 percentile. That same value, 143.62, is 3.22 standard deviations above the mean for women, putting it at the 99.963 percentile. So 0.135% of men will be at or above this value, but only 0.037% of women. Put another way, with an equal population, there will be about 3.6 times as many men at or above that level than there are women. As we move further up the distribution, that difference continues to increase. Not to sound like I'm some kind of male supremacist, the same occurs when you go towards the LOW end of the distribution. There will be several times more men below a certain threshold than there are women. This, combined with a lower female membership, is why only 1% of the top 100 are women. This is why there are separate women's titles and separate women's divisions in chess. (Note: For the purposes of illustration, I used a normal or Gaussian distribution formula. The actual distribution of scores like IQ and Elo ratings can be approximated by this distribution reasonably well; well enough that the conclusions hold.)

@SaintsFanatic if has to be preceded by something as the title is only for women WGM is clearly different from GM so it has to indicated.

@SaintsFanatic if has to be preceded by something as the title is only for women WGM is clearly different from GM so it has to indicated.

If there is a GM (IM, FM, CM and soon probably also MoreOrLessNearlyAlmostM) and their respective W counterparts shoudn't there also be titles for transgender people, Lesbians, Homosexuals, transgender homosexuals who only want lesbian partners in BDSM setups and so on?

I mean, really, haven't these people suffered enough? Not even to speak about race inequalities! Face it, most GMs are white. Shouldn't there also be a BGM (Black GM), a NAGM (native american GM), a AAGM (australian aborigenes GM) and so on?

Not to forget a GM title especially for left-handers, men with erectile dysfunctions, and finally a LGM - a "lazy GM" for people with motivation problems. You get it for getting out of bed in the morning.

krasnaya

If there is a GM (IM, FM, CM and soon probably also MoreOrLessNearlyAlmostM) and their respective W counterparts shoudn't there also be titles for transgender people, Lesbians, Homosexuals, transgender homosexuals who only want lesbian partners in BDSM setups and so on? I mean, really, haven't these people suffered enough? Not even to speak about race inequalities! Face it, most GMs are white. Shouldn't there also be a BGM (Black GM), a NAGM (native american GM), a AAGM (australian aborigenes GM) and so on? Not to forget a GM title especially for left-handers, men with erectile dysfunctions, and finally a LGM - a "lazy GM" for people with motivation problems. You get it for getting out of bed in the morning. krasnaya

@krasnaya
My man with that comment you fulfilled all norms for the IGM title, in words Idiot Grand Master.

@krasnaya My man with that comment you fulfilled all norms for the IGM title, in words Idiot Grand Master.

@jesgluckner said (#44):

you fulfilled all norms for the IGM title, in words Idiot Grand Master.

Let us skip over the fact that you seem to believe that interpunction is just happenstance. I mean, most literate people would get the difference between "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!", but you are obviously not one of these.

Furthermore, i wonder why you edited out the part in German where you mentioned that "Strache" (an Austrian right-wing politician - think "Nigel Farage, but without being house-trained") would be proud of me. Frankly, i doubt that, but to return the compliment: not even that goon would be proud of you - and probably even less your mother, which might be the reason she threw away the child and raised the afterbirth instead.

So now, that i have shown that i am pretty capable of trading insults with people using words they have no idea of what they mean (tip: "ἰδιώτης" means "layman" in ancient greek), can we continue to discuss this topic? Because even you should be aware that your posting #44 did add nothing to the topic but solely tried - seemingly however well you could - to insult me.

Fact is: the FIDE is getting a fee for every title awarded and this is why FIDE tried constantly in the last years to increase the number of titles they award. Quite a considerable amount of income stems from these fees. Once it was "GM" (or, in fact, "IGM" - International Grand Master) and "IM" and that was it. Today we have: GM, IM, FM, CM, WGM, WIM, WFM, WCM, international Arbiter, FIDE Arbiter, FIDE Senior Trainer, FIDE Trainer, FIDE Instructor, National Instructor, Developmental Instructor, FIDE Organizer - and i have probably forgotten some because they invented a few since i started to write this.

Another fact is: about 2 years ago the respective governing body of FIDE (the "Commission for Regulations") received and heavily discussed an inquiry for even more player titles. They envisioned a complete set of titles especially for the disabled, similar to that for women. And the only reason for doing so was to get more titles and therefore more revenue.

Yet another fact: The expressed reason for having women titles with lower standards than the general titles is to "encourage" women because they are underrepresented in respect to players numbers. Now, if we accept that as a valid argument and a reasonable proposititon, then my (ironically) suggested titles for certain races would certainly hold true either - or do you know only one aboriginee Grandmaster? And how many black (Native American, Roma, Szinti, ...) Grandmasters are there in relation to their share of the whole population?

We need women titles to get them to play chess in bigger numbers. OK, but if that is true, then why not have Native American titles for absolutely the same reason?

Now, yet another fact: Susan Polgar said the only reason women are not playing chess as well as men on average is because they put in less work in improvement. Btw., for these comments she was forced out of USCF (she plays for Hungary today) by people like Irina Krush - a woman who never got on the other side of FIDE 2400. And the same is true for Austria: the late Eva Moser had her best time chesswise when the GM she lived with (and who plays a lot better than she ever had) did her opening preparation for her. Or take the notorious Elisabeth Pähtz, who let others constantly refer to her as "Chess Grandmaster". Well, fact is: she isn't and she never was, but at that time was a WGM - but who cares, GM - WGM - CM - WCM - master is master and it is pretty much all the same, isn't it? (Her chess column in the "Thüringer Allgemeine Zeitung" was edited by "Chess Grandmaster Elisabeth Pähtz" for years.)

True, Susan Polgar talked about professional chess players, but probably she doesn't have as much insight into professional chess like you, who seems to be quite accomplished in that respect. I have a suspicion you even know the correct names of the pieces.

And, yes, i have worded my opinion in a quite sarcastic way, but i suppose one "idiot" and the insinuation of right-wing association trumps every fact and reasoning i might cite here. Have you something to contribute to the topic here or does that have to wait until you have grown up to at least grammar school level reading comprehension while you are marking time insulting others?

krasnaya

@jesgluckner said (#44): > you fulfilled all norms for the IGM title, in words Idiot Grand Master. Let us skip over the fact that you seem to believe that interpunction is just happenstance. I mean, most literate people would get the difference between "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!", but you are obviously not one of these. Furthermore, i wonder why you edited out the part in German where you mentioned that "Strache" (an Austrian right-wing politician - think "Nigel Farage, but without being house-trained") would be proud of me. Frankly, i doubt that, but to return the compliment: not even that goon would be proud of you - and probably even less your mother, which might be the reason she threw away the child and raised the afterbirth instead. So now, that i have shown that i am pretty capable of trading insults with people using words they have no idea of what they mean (tip: "ἰδιώτης" means "layman" in ancient greek), can we continue to discuss this topic? Because even you should be aware that your posting #44 did add nothing to the topic but solely tried - seemingly however well you could - to insult me. Fact is: the FIDE is getting a fee for every title awarded and this is why FIDE tried constantly in the last years to increase the number of titles they award. Quite a considerable amount of income stems from these fees. Once it was "GM" (or, in fact, "IGM" - International Grand Master) and "IM" and that was it. Today we have: GM, IM, FM, CM, WGM, WIM, WFM, WCM, international Arbiter, FIDE Arbiter, FIDE Senior Trainer, FIDE Trainer, FIDE Instructor, National Instructor, Developmental Instructor, FIDE Organizer - and i have probably forgotten some because they invented a few since i started to write this. Another fact is: about 2 years ago the respective governing body of FIDE (the "Commission for Regulations") received and heavily discussed an inquiry for even more player titles. They envisioned a complete set of titles especially for the disabled, similar to that for women. And the only reason for doing so was to get more titles and therefore more revenue. Yet another fact: The expressed reason for having women titles with lower standards than the general titles is to "encourage" women because they are underrepresented in respect to players numbers. Now, if we accept that as a valid argument and a reasonable proposititon, then my (ironically) suggested titles for certain races would certainly hold true either - or do you know only one aboriginee Grandmaster? And how many black (Native American, Roma, Szinti, ...) Grandmasters are there in relation to their share of the whole population? We need women titles to get them to play chess in bigger numbers. OK, but if that is true, then why not have Native American titles for absolutely the same reason? Now, yet another fact: Susan Polgar said the only reason women are not playing chess as well as men on average is because they put in less work in improvement. Btw., for these comments she was forced out of USCF (she plays for Hungary today) by people like Irina Krush - a woman who never got on the other side of FIDE 2400. And the same is true for Austria: the late Eva Moser had her best time chesswise when the GM she lived with (and who plays a lot better than she ever had) did her opening preparation for her. Or take the notorious Elisabeth Pähtz, who let others constantly refer to her as "Chess Grandmaster". Well, fact is: she isn't and she never was, but at that time was a WGM - but who cares, GM - WGM - CM - WCM - master is master and it is pretty much all the same, isn't it? (Her chess column in the "Thüringer Allgemeine Zeitung" was edited by "Chess Grandmaster Elisabeth Pähtz" for years.) True, Susan Polgar talked about professional chess players, but probably she doesn't have as much insight into professional chess like you, who seems to be quite accomplished in that respect. I have a suspicion you even know the correct names of the pieces. And, yes, i have worded my opinion in a quite sarcastic way, but i suppose one "idiot" and the insinuation of right-wing association trumps every fact and reasoning i might cite here. Have you something to contribute to the topic here or does that have to wait until you have grown up to at least grammar school level reading comprehension while you are marking time insulting others? krasnaya

this forum is slowly going to become bigger than a dictionary, mark my words

this forum is slowly going to become bigger than a dictionary, mark my words

@Akshaj_the_Chess_pro

"Men players are better than women players. That's how it's has been, that's how it is, and that's how it will be."

When Judit Polgar was No. 8 of the world, only 7 male GM were better and all other male GM were worse. Remember, Judit Polgar is just the result of an experiment which here father did. She wasn't chosen for this experiment because of genetic advantages. The only reason was that she is one of his three daughters.

Who has the world record for the highest IQ? It's a woman (Marilyn vos Savant).

So what would be possible when a trainer like Judit Polgar's father would train such a girl with such genetic advantages?

@Akshaj_the_Chess_pro "Men players are better than women players. That's how it's has been, that's how it is, and that's how it will be." When Judit Polgar was No. 8 of the world, only 7 male GM were better and all other male GM were worse. Remember, Judit Polgar is just the result of an experiment which here father did. She wasn't chosen for this experiment because of genetic advantages. The only reason was that she is one of his three daughters. Who has the world record for the highest IQ? It's a woman (Marilyn vos Savant). So what would be possible when a trainer like Judit Polgar's father would train such a girl with such genetic advantages?

@krasnaya imagine malding over the little word "idiot" said by a random on the internet on a chess forum.
i don't participate in online debates about politics as there is no point.
but if i see a post which is idiotic then it's my right to say so.
sadly your second post is again quite idiotic.
everything you criticise me for you did yourself.
insults.
the post having no context. or do you think your first post was constructive in any way?
quite hypocritical

also going in on the grammar mistakes, bringing up greek and the fact that you eat a dictionary for breakfast every eay does not what you desperately wish it would do, to make you sound smart, rather it indicates some sort of superiority complex.

but because "der schlauere gibt nach" i offer you my hand in an attempt to appologize for all the troubles my 18 word post has brought upon you. I am sorry.

@krasnaya imagine malding over the little word "idiot" said by a random on the internet on a chess forum. i don't participate in online debates about politics as there is no point. but if i see a post which is idiotic then it's my right to say so. sadly your second post is again quite idiotic. everything you criticise me for you did yourself. insults. the post having no context. or do you think your first post was constructive in any way? quite hypocritical also going in on the grammar mistakes, bringing up greek and the fact that you eat a dictionary for breakfast every eay does not what you desperately wish it would do, to make you sound smart, rather it indicates some sort of superiority complex. but because "der schlauere gibt nach" i offer you my hand in an attempt to appologize for all the troubles my 18 word post has brought upon you. I am sorry.

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