On the gleeful subversion of lichess ToS in the Off-Topic section (or: the clousems annual mod rant)

@shadow1414
I can confirm that this subforum has been rough since before you joined. I'm just particularly concerned that the rules are being so obviously broken with no consequence-- there's a difference between a lightly moderated forum (the standard here) and one that is moderated inconsistently and ineffectively (what we've got now).

I know I've gotten to the point where I'm borderline bullying the moderation staff, and I hate that. Almost every mod I've encountered has seemed like a great person. And maybe the issue isn't the mods themselves. My lichess conspiracy theory is that not all reports get read, either due to mod team policy or a technical issue that hasn't been addressed due to the general confusion about how the mod team works (again-- it once took lichess over a month before they did anything to address an account that regularly accused me of child abuse, and even then I only got a mod's attention because I used a lot of profanity. That's nuts!). Maybe vague rules make enforcement impossible. I do know that, at one point, there was talk of a more codified rule structure. Heck, I've seen a draft of a more codified set of rules. Maybe that would help?

I don't think that all of these kids are breaking rules to be jackasses-- I honestly don't think they know better. But something needs to be fixed-- at this point, it feels like the most effective moderation in this subforum is me (a non-mod with a tendency to swear at the drop of a hat) begging people to follow the rules (primarily so I don't get tempted to call them all sorts of nasty names), and that's a problem. I'm glad to make suggestions and help if I can because I enjoy the site, but at the end of the day, the mods should be responsible for discouraging forum-breaking behavior from the userbase; the userbase shouldn't have to demand the effective behavior of the mods.

I am requesting several improvements :

• The creation of a charter about use of AI. The purpose of this charter would be to ask users to be aware of the impact of AI on the quality of the forums and to request minimal use from them, taking into account linguistic constraints, for example, for non-native English speakers.

Also, forbidding images created by generative AI in blogs, and depending of the context, in forum. The excuse that not everyone is an artist doesn't mean to remplace it by AI.

Lichess has generously included links to royalty-free image sites on the blogs page. And since Lichess undoubtedly has a large team of professional designers, this would be a fantastic boost to support the profession. Also I suggest that moderators should more closely monitor forum posts that might be entirely AI-generated, and as on some sites, to propose the user to use a mark "made with AI"

• A new, more visible chat etiquette, including the uselessness of brainrot, short messages (with one word for example), and reminders of proper use of the forum, with examples and advice about what is a good message. Also consider getting back to pre-Markdown era on public forums, as it doesn't offer much benefit, particularly regarding the use of chained quotes that make messages difficult to understand.

• The addition of topic tags. I think it will allow users to select only the topics that interest them (art, politics and society, humor, cooking, nature... and more). Authors will also be asked to select the topic tags for their future thread before posting.

@clousems said ^

There is a group of accounts in these parts that has been quite visible and unapologetic in their spamming, aggravating a large number of other users. There has been very little mod activity to, well, moderate this situation, although the fact that a couple of the accounts have been chatbanned following reports suggests that the mods do still oppose the off-topic section turning into spamageddeon.

Right.

I get it. The mods have a lot on their plates. Off-topic has always been, and always will be, the lichess dumpster-fire and a bottom priority. Spam, while annoying and aggravating, isn't as dangerous to the site as, say, cheating, ban-evading, etc.

I mean, the users with more forum posts then games played are probably gonna protest, but yes, i think youre right again.

But it seems that the "Wild West" state of the off-topic section is now encouraging kids to normalize rulebreaking, including in ways that have actual impacts on the site.

Where is all of this normalizing rulebreaking in any way? I understand that youre mad about some ban evading, but please explain to me where there is people „normalizing rulebreaking“.

Take, for instance, https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/animal-chat?page=1. I have no problem with a thread to talk about "animals", even if that topic isn't particularly interesting to me. What I do have a problem with is the fact that this thread (and many others like it) is being used as a group chat for a small group of kids who think its hilarious to make multiple accounts for no reason.
Most of these kids have been ignoring calls to use teams or DMs for personal communication for over a month now, arguing that because the subforum says "off-topic", they can spam to their hearts content.

I think i have to say, youre mostly right in this point. What i dont fully understand: „is the fact that this thread (and many others like it) is being used as a group chat for a small group of kids who think its hilarious to make multiple accounts for no reason.“
Yes, its sad that many threads are kinda being used to just chat about random things. But thats also just how forums are, and mostly threads arent only used to chat in small groups. Normally, the question of the thread never really gets lost too. Also, you say kids are making multiple accounts just to spam and because its fun. Again, its mostly ban evading (im not saying thats better!) but in most threads there arent even this many alt accounts so i dont think thats a real problem in forums (it becomes a problem in chess games tho). Im okay with every other point in this part of the post.

The apparent reason for these alts is to make it more fun to spam, which I have to assume is against lichess ToS. Making it worse is that one of those accounts is apparently the alt of an account that was flagged for fair play violations about a week ago (https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/pandas-rule?page=2#ns5oNNAl).

Again, more fun to spam is not the reason for making alts but yes ban evading IS bad and should not be done (the last part of this was kinda public shaming tho).

I get that the off-topic section is meant as the "fun" part of the forum, but when mods don't respond to behavior that is clearly violating site rules, it makes the environment much less fun, as users will take advantage. At some point, one of two things needs to happen:

1. Mods need to enforce, or at least encourage the following of the site rules as outlined in various rule documents
2. Mods need to update the rules documents to permit certain behavior

I dont really think that something has to happen. Its not like lichess is collapsing because of Off topic.

It's not fair to the lichess users to discourage cheating and multiaccounting, yet not take action when users share that they are making alts after a ban in a public forum on the site.

Absoulutly right.

It calls into question the integrity of all lichess accounts when this sort of thing happens, especially new ones, and I don't think this site wants to give merit to those guys who abandon games against provisional players. It's also not fair to new users of the site-- when they see this sort of nonsense, it convinces them to look elsewhere (because who wants to deal with a bunch of immature kids who think its funny to break rules on a website?) or to repeat the behavior (because everyone else is getting away with it). And it's not fair to the rare users who do get punished, when others are doing the exact same thing in the exact same place at the exact same time and not running into any resistance.

Very good point, this is just not how lichess should work (Again: nobody is really breaking the size rules because its fun tho).

To the mods: again, I get you guys are stretched thin. But we've been told for years that lichess has more than enough moderators, to the point where if you even ask about volunteering to help out, you get blackballed. I don't know if you need a recruitment drive, to clarify your rules, or even to shut down the off-topic section until it can be properly moderated (as I said much more forcefully in https://lichess.org/forum/lichess-feedback/off-topic-section-is-becoming-a-liability, an unmoderated open forum with both children and adults is dangerous), but I can't imagine you guys really want a subforum that serves as a training ground for lichess terrorists. It's your job to make sure that we don't end up in massive arguments about "what is spam" and to prevent widespread rulebreaking.

Nice, but lichess forums are not the problem! Im fine with everything you said, but no, off topic is not a training ground for lichess terrorist and no, closing off topic is not helping at all!

To anyone (other than the mods) reading this who feels targeted by what I'm saying, please just follow the site rules.

Ok. If my activities in the animal thread were annoying to anybody, exuse me.
@clousems thanks for telling your opinion to us!

"Alt" accounts soon after being chat banned DOES present something to which I can join in protest, mildly.

But other than that, I am typically unconcerned about "kids" making "spam."

If something is posted that is trivial or silly I have an easy solution that works for me, at least: I don't read it.

Rather than yell "get off my lawn" at every kid who posts something that I consider below my maturity level, I'd rather just ignore their post.

Where's the horrible crisis in that?

Of course, during Covid I didn't wander around demanding that churches not be allowed to meet in parking lots, or that people be kept away from the beach, either.

But some did. So I'm aware that some folks are much more comfortable demanding the control of others than I am.

Perhaps I'd change my mind if I had any clear idea of what "spam" even means. If it just means silly, or useless, or childish -- but otherwise generally harmless -- I just don't feel that mods have to waste their time scolding others about it.

As for using an "alt" account to get around a chat ban -- that DOES seem to be something more fitting to worry about.

But even there, if that ban went on for, say, a year, I wouldn't object to then giving somebody a second chance. Or even a third. But self-made second chances within a day, by just creating a new account, that DOES seem to "gut" a chat ban. So for THAT I would be willing to yell "get off my lawn.." if I ever got a, you know, lawn.

@Chesseliho @Noflaps
First, since you both raised this issue, let me clarify my problem with allowing spam.

I agree that spam, in and of itself, is not the largest issue facing mods. I think I mentioned that earlier. I am not saying we need the moderators to become the gestapo, banning anyone who makes a post that looks spam-adjacent. I think a helpful comment here or there from someone with a mod icon is enough.
The problem emerges when we run into waves of spam topics that push out all legitimate conversation. That is my biggest concern. You can't ignore spam when the first 10 topics are just kids shitposting.

Funnily enough, back in the day, there was a series of threads called Inane and Pointless which, while initially a parody, turned into a chat/spam quarantine. Ironically, one of the few ways to get a mods attention is to make a thread entitled "I&P", as it will be banned for being spam in no time flat.

That brings me to another problem, which is that the moderators apparently don't have a good idea of what qualifies as "spam". If spam is something that needs to be purged, and a thread about making a story with song lyrics or a casual open chat fall into this category, then why is it that threads like that "animals" one aren't considered objectionable? Did @morphyms1817 shoot thibault's dog or something? It feels like rules are being applied arbitrarily and in a way contrary to their purpose.

Now, for individual responses:
@Chesseliho The normalization is in the fact that it's becoming commonplace to see people totally ignoring the rules, and I didn't investigate closely into the reason for the alts; if it is indeed a function of widespread ban-evasion, that's really bad.

As for the rest of what you said, a lot of that is based on what I've seen. I have seen this section devolve into absolute batshit anarchy (notably during covid). The closing of the off-topic section is not a new idea, and I hope it doesn't come to that, but it's not a good idea to have an unmoderated forum on a site frequented by children. The points about either enforcing or updating the ToS is both common sense and important for allowing the users to know what is expected of them and what they can expect on the site.

As for the public shaming: if a user violates fair play policy, then makes a new account to evade the ban, then brags about it, I don't think they have shame. (I also don't really care anyways, because they deserve to be called out so others know not to play them).

(By the way, if you keep your group chat in a single thread, I don't have nearly as much of a problem with it. I'd like to reiterate that the best way to do this is in a team, though.)

@Noflaps

1. This is not a politics thread
2. Making an alt to evade a chatban is bad enough, but it's much worse when avoiding playbans becomes tolerated.

@LeSereinColosse said ^

@clousems

you're acting like a forum police here but you're not a mod.

if there's a problem with moderation, just report it or move on. writing long posts and trying to manage how everyone should behave doesn't help fr.

bruh this is so annoying. You fvcking nerd.

Classy

EDIT: Okay, I'm sorry, but is "fvcking nerd" the best insult you could come up with? Seriously, is this amateur hour? If you're just going for it, at least get a good one in.

Pas très serin ? And I'm not a bird watcher.