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if christian god existed, would he be a cruel god?

Okay I have a LOT to read, well I will come back at monday and respond for everyone, this post is so active, holy shit

Okay I have a LOT to read, well I will come back at monday and respond for everyone, this post is so active, holy shit

@clousems

EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel

The literal meaning of "Christian" is "those people over there who follow Christ Jesus".

Jesus said for us to love our one another and to turn from selfish and ungodly mistreatment of our one another.

Thus, it needn't be argued that "the abolition of slavery was due to Christanity".

It is literally the case...and this stands true regardless of any belief system.

The Truth has nothing to do with what we believe about It.

We should thank our lucky stars that it happens to also be Perfect Love/Life/Innocence.

@clousems > EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel The literal meaning of "Christian" is "those people over there who follow Christ Jesus". Jesus said for us to love our one another and to turn from selfish and ungodly mistreatment of our one another. Thus, it needn't be argued that "the abolition of slavery was due to Christanity". It is literally the case...and this stands true regardless of any belief system. The Truth has nothing to do with what we believe about It. We should thank our lucky stars that it happens to also be Perfect Love/Life/Innocence.

@clousems said in #185:

EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel

As far as I'm aware, the people who penned the old testament did so as best as they could, and often did so from their own perspective, which is all too often antithetical and counter-intuitive to our Father in Heaven.

When God was here, He told us to love our one another and to forgive our one another our trespasses.

Love is the only thing that actual works at all, much less works well.

This is true yesterday, today, and forever.

So, when the writers of the old testament, we human beings, said that "God helped us slay the Canaanites"...it becomes obvious that we were projecting and speaking about His antithesis.

Further, those same writers, the Hebrews of the day, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the 'religious order', the 'religious authority', aka us human beings, when God did visit, we argued with Him, told Him that He's not what we expected, that we expected Him to lay waste to our enemies, and that He would be the salvation of our group of people.

(What we missed was the understanding that we were our own worst enemy whom He had come to correct, and that God is Love, Truth, Life, and Innocence, and that He has nothing to do with a lack of Himself.)

He collected gatherings of 1000s of people, which must have been the comparable to our most viral social media accounts...where only the Romans and the Hebrew clergy could claim more familiarity with people, but where the popularity and notoriety of the Roman government and the Hebrew clergy were not really elected by the people in the same way that Jesus' following was.

As I understand it, this was the largest motivation behind the Jewish clergy of the day, the writers of the old testament, appealing to have Pilate execute Jesus.

The Hebrew people, "God's chosen", are the people of planet earth where, when we follow Him, things work out well, and when we don't, they do not. 100% of us would fall within this parameter and definition.

Anyway, since the writers of the old testament constantly had a habit of accidentally recording the exact opposite of the truth, and the exact opposite of God's will, I think that it's fair to say that, "Love your one another," does a very good job of laying waste to the vain ideas of scapegoats, offerings and every other ineffective attempt to deal with the ungodly precedent and protocol that we've set for ourselves.

After all, even His own disciples ROUTINELY went against His will.

They tried to send the children away, He corrected them.
They tried fishing on the wrong side of the boat, He corrected them.
They tried having Him condemn those who were doing works in His name, He corrected them.

We really don't have much of a clue!

Luckily, love actually works and we can see exactly how things play out when we choose love instead of selfishness.

Love ACTUALLY and ALWAYS works to change everything for the better!

If not for God's example...the entire book is a useless piece of trash that does nothing for anyone.

We should be thankful that He came to correct the many slanderous lies that were written within the old testament about Him.
We should be so thankful that He came to set the record straight and to remind us of Him.

@clousems said in #185: >EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel As far as I'm aware, the people who penned the old testament did so as best as they could, and often did so from their own perspective, which is all too often antithetical and counter-intuitive to our Father in Heaven. When God was here, He told us to love our one another and to forgive our one another our trespasses. Love is the only thing that actual works at all, much less works well. This is true yesterday, today, and forever. - So, when the writers of the old testament, we human beings, said that "God helped us slay the Canaanites"...it becomes obvious that we were projecting and speaking about His antithesis. Further, those same writers, the Hebrews of the day, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the 'religious order', the 'religious authority', aka us human beings, when God did visit, we argued with Him, told Him that He's not what we expected, that we expected Him to lay waste to our enemies, and that He would be the salvation of our group of people. (What we missed was the understanding that we were our own worst enemy whom He had come to correct, and that God is Love, Truth, Life, and Innocence, and that He has nothing to do with a lack of Himself.) He collected gatherings of 1000s of people, which must have been the comparable to our most viral social media accounts...where only the Romans and the Hebrew clergy could claim more familiarity with people, but where the popularity and notoriety of the Roman government and the Hebrew clergy were not really elected by the people in the same way that Jesus' following was. As I understand it, this was the largest motivation behind the Jewish clergy of the day, the writers of the old testament, appealing to have Pilate execute Jesus. - The Hebrew people, "God's chosen", are the people of planet earth where, when we follow Him, things work out well, and when we don't, they do not. 100% of us would fall within this parameter and definition. - Anyway, since the writers of the old testament constantly had a habit of accidentally recording the exact opposite of the truth, and the exact opposite of God's will, I think that it's fair to say that, "Love your one another," does a very good job of laying waste to the vain ideas of scapegoats, offerings and every other ineffective attempt to deal with the ungodly precedent and protocol that we've set for ourselves. After all, even His own disciples ROUTINELY went against His will. They tried to send the children away, He corrected them. They tried fishing on the wrong side of the boat, He corrected them. They tried having Him condemn those who were doing works in His name, He corrected them. We really don't have much of a clue! Luckily, love actually works and we can see exactly how things play out when we choose love instead of selfishness. Love ACTUALLY and ALWAYS works to change everything for the better! - If not for God's example...the entire book is a useless piece of trash that does nothing for anyone. We should be thankful that He came to correct the many slanderous lies that were written within the old testament about Him. We should be so thankful that He came to set the record straight and to remind us of Him.

@justme23 said in #190:

But no where in the Bible does it say slavery is immoral that includes Jesus said nothing.
It says Christian God is or is not good. If you think differently post the Proof.

I'm not sure what you're asking?

Are you saying that God didn't list every single method of misbehaviour and that not mentioning every method of ungodly misbehaviour is some kind of lack of condemnation or condoning?

For-profit factory farming didn't yet exist; chattel slavery didn't yet exist; price gouging didn't yet exist; planned obsolescence didn't yet exist...

I'll tell you what...

Post your address so that I can send you into the corner while I move my family into your your master bedroom...

Yeah? Or no?

And even if you go with, "Come at me bro! I have my conceal and carry!"...that's STILL a flawless concession that it's misbehaviour that you would not want to be subjected to, and, therefore, I can be confident that it's not misbehaviour that I should be subjecting you to.

It's so simple it's painful.

Lastly, if the measure you're holding God to is, "You didn't say not to do that one exact specific thing when you were here...you only told us to 'love our one another' and I find that ambiguous when it comes to the matter of (chattel) slavery..."

Then I can't imagine that that exact same benchmark and process of thinking wouldn't be applied to absolutely everything else within your paradigm, including yourself, and that that paradigm must be completely exhausting to you.

@justme23 said in #190: > But no where in the Bible does it say slavery is immoral that includes Jesus said nothing. > It says Christian God is or is not good. If you think differently post the Proof. I'm not sure what you're asking? Are you saying that God didn't list every single method of misbehaviour and that not mentioning every method of ungodly misbehaviour is some kind of lack of condemnation or condoning? For-profit factory farming didn't yet exist; chattel slavery didn't yet exist; price gouging didn't yet exist; planned obsolescence didn't yet exist... I'll tell you what... Post your address so that I can send you into the corner while I move my family into your your master bedroom... Yeah? Or no? And even if you go with, "Come at me bro! I have my conceal and carry!"...that's STILL a flawless concession that it's misbehaviour that you would not want to be subjected to, and, therefore, I can be confident that it's not misbehaviour that I should be subjecting you to. It's so simple it's painful. - Lastly, if the measure you're holding God to is, "You didn't say not to do that one exact specific thing when you were here...you only told us to 'love our one another' and I find that ambiguous when it comes to the matter of (chattel) slavery..." Then I can't imagine that that exact same benchmark and process of thinking wouldn't be applied to absolutely everything else within your paradigm, including yourself, and that that paradigm must be completely exhausting to you.

@clousems said in #185:

I am a Christian myself, but I also think that a lot of people get bogged down in the minutiae of the Bible...

Indeed.

God is not confined within the covers of the Bible.

@clousems said in #185: > I am a Christian myself, but I also think that a lot of people get bogged down in the minutiae of the Bible... Indeed. God is not confined within the covers of the Bible.

@clousems I thought you where of a different religion.
My inaccuracy.

@clousems I thought you where of a different religion. My inaccuracy.

@clousems said in #187:

The short answer: I don't really have a choice.
I don't believe we can approach God's decision making process from a rational perspective. If we could, then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

But if we do approach it from a rational perspective, does the Christian god not seem cruel?

God could have:

  1. Made a universe where suffering and evil does not exist, and still accomplish whatever goal humans were created for. If he couldn’t do this, he’s not all powerful.
  2. He wanted humans to endure evil and needless suffering. Hence he’s not all good.
  3. Humans introduced suffering and evil without his intention. Hence he’s not all knowing, or powerful enough to change what he started, or doesn’t care (he’s not good).

Seriously, what am I missing here?

@clousems said in #187: > The short answer: I don't really have a choice. > I don't believe we can approach God's decision making process from a rational perspective. If we could, then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. But if we do approach it from a rational perspective, does the Christian god not seem cruel? God could have: 1) Made a universe where suffering and evil does not exist, and still accomplish whatever goal humans were created for. If he couldn’t do this, he’s not all powerful. 2) He wanted humans to endure evil and needless suffering. Hence he’s not all good. 3) Humans introduced suffering and evil without his intention. Hence he’s not all knowing, or powerful enough to change what he started, or doesn’t care (he’s not good). Seriously, what am I missing here?

As Sleepy Gary has said, to give a God the attributes of being all knowing, all loving, and all powerful creates an immediate logical paradox in the problem of evil. To add, if God were to exist with these attributes it would be expected that he would be in plain sight and not hidden to most; particularly the open-minded agnostics that have given him the serious time of day.

As Sleepy Gary has said, to give a God the attributes of being all knowing, all loving, and all powerful creates an immediate logical paradox in the problem of evil. To add, if God were to exist with these attributes it would be expected that he would be in plain sight and not hidden to most; particularly the open-minded agnostics that have given him the serious time of day.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #197:

But if we do approach it from a rational perspective, does the Christian god not seem cruel?

God could have:

  1. Made a universe where suffering and evil does not exist, and still accomplish whatever goal humans were created for. If he couldn’t do this, he’s not all powerful.
  2. He wanted humans to endure evil and needless suffering. Hence he’s not all good.
  3. Humans introduced suffering and evil without his intention. Hence he’s not all knowing, or powerful enough to change what he started, or doesn’t care (he’s not good).

Seriously, what am I missing here?

You're still presupposing God's intentions. Rationality is a human attribute-- it is what separates us from other organisms. Supposing there is a God, he would not be an organism at all, but rather a higher being. Judging the actions of a being like that would be like approaching rationality from the standpoint of your pet or houseplant. At some point, it becomes purely a matter of faith-- if we start using examples to prove points regarding goodness or badness of god, we hit dead ends. For example:

a) The bad in the world can be seen as something to help us appreciate all that is good-- this proves that God is not cruel
b) The good fortune of others can be seen as something that exacerbates the pain of our own misfortune-- this proves that God is cruel

@Sleepy_Gary said in #197: > But if we do approach it from a rational perspective, does the Christian god not seem cruel? > > God could have: > 1) Made a universe where suffering and evil does not exist, and still accomplish whatever goal humans were created for. If he couldn’t do this, he’s not all powerful. > 2) He wanted humans to endure evil and needless suffering. Hence he’s not all good. > 3) Humans introduced suffering and evil without his intention. Hence he’s not all knowing, or powerful enough to change what he started, or doesn’t care (he’s not good). > > Seriously, what am I missing here? You're still presupposing God's intentions. Rationality is a human attribute-- it is what separates us from other organisms. Supposing there is a God, he would not be an organism at all, but rather a higher being. Judging the actions of a being like that would be like approaching rationality from the standpoint of your pet or houseplant. At some point, it becomes purely a matter of faith-- if we start using examples to prove points regarding goodness or badness of god, we hit dead ends. For example: a) The bad in the world can be seen as something to help us appreciate all that is good-- this proves that God is not cruel b) The good fortune of others can be seen as something that exacerbates the pain of our own misfortune-- this proves that God is cruel

@xDoubledragon said in #6:

you know after little bit of thinking, I come up with insane objective proof
that if god is omnipotent when free-will cannot exist
because god is omnipotent he knows everything, it means that he knows how world started and ended and knows every single detail.

Omniscient means all knowing. It is smply false that Gods omniscience precludes our free will.
Think about it another way if we have free will how is that a product of divine ignorance? It doesnt follow.

As we get better at predicting the weather it could, though not by necessity, suggest greater ability to manipulate the weather. It does not follow that having achieved perfect weather prediction that we do cause it. Able or not.

@xDoubledragon said in #6: > you know after little bit of thinking, I come up with insane objective proof > that if god is omnipotent when free-will cannot exist > because god is omnipotent he knows everything, it means that he knows how world started and ended and knows every single detail. Omniscient means all knowing. It is smply false that Gods omniscience precludes our free will. Think about it another way if we have free will how is that a product of divine ignorance? It doesnt follow. As we get better at predicting the weather it could, though not by necessity, suggest greater ability to manipulate the weather. It does not follow that having achieved perfect weather prediction that we do cause it. Able or not.

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