Your network blocks the Lichess assets!

lichess.org
Donate

if christian god existed, would he be a cruel god?

<Comment deleted by user>

@Sleepy_Gary said in #197:

But if we do approach it from a rational...

What makes you think that human beings are good at being rational?

Aren't we the same ones who pride ourselves in our "masterful intellect" and cite the ability to discover technology as evidence thereof...whilst making unloving/ungodly pseudo-rationales as to why we need to use it to bomb our babies?

Aren't we the same ones who disavow ourselves from any participation in chattel slavery...and then boast about how 'we kicked your butts in WW2' when we find ourselves in an argument with a person who was born in Germany?

Or, perhaps, we can easily trace and track, clinically, how these examples have nothing to do with us and everything to do with our 'lying mouths' which only tell the truth by accident and/or when convenient; and which, otherwise, work to annihilate all measure of physical and mental health within our locale and within this context of life?

The idea that 'our lying mouths' could possibly do a good job assessing matters of God, is impossible.
Obviously, we need look into the matter with our truthful mouth.

"I want nothing more than another bottle of booze." - the "person" with alcoholism
"I want nothing more than to be sober for the rest of my life." - the Person with alcoholism.

One of these feigns itself to be God...while the other knows Him much better.

I only make the point to say that when someone is born in a room with almost no colour...(like our universal locale for instance)...it's nearly impossible for them to imagine what a painting with vibrant colours would look like.

The extent of their ability to "think rationally" would, by necessity, thoroughly omit almost all mention of 'colour' within their logic.

This is a tough concession for us to make because we can intuit that this is precisely the case when attempting to understand matters of God...and yet, somehow, we can't put it down and leave it alone...while simultaneously being forced to.

It's really a wild thing!

But with that said...it's a very tough pill to swallow that "our universal locale" is more relevant than "the universal locale".

There is probably a very good reason why we're saddled with talking about this universe as though it is 'ours'.

There is probably a very good reason why we can't duck our onus of this locale...regardless of how much our 'lying mouths' would prefer to play dodgeball with the point.

Things mean stuff!

@Sleepy_Gary said in #197: >But if we do approach it from a rational... What makes you think that human beings are good at being rational? Aren't we the same ones who pride ourselves in our "masterful intellect" and cite the ability to discover technology as evidence thereof...whilst making unloving/ungodly pseudo-rationales as to why we need to use it to bomb our babies? Aren't we the same ones who disavow ourselves from any participation in chattel slavery...and then boast about how 'we kicked your butts in WW2' when we find ourselves in an argument with a person who was born in Germany? Or, perhaps, we can easily trace and track, clinically, how these examples have nothing to do with us and everything to do with our 'lying mouths' which only tell the truth by accident and/or when convenient; and which, otherwise, work to annihilate all measure of physical and mental health within our locale and within this context of life? The idea that 'our lying mouths' could possibly do a good job assessing matters of God, is impossible. Obviously, we need look into the matter with our truthful mouth. "I want nothing more than another bottle of booze." - the "person" with alcoholism "I want nothing more than to be sober for the rest of my life." - the Person with alcoholism. One of these feigns itself to be God...while the other knows Him much better. - I only make the point to say that when someone is born in a room with almost no colour...(like our universal locale for instance)...it's nearly impossible for them to imagine what a painting with vibrant colours would look like. The extent of their ability to "think rationally" would, by necessity, thoroughly omit almost all mention of 'colour' within their logic. This is a tough concession for us to make because we can intuit that this is precisely the case when attempting to understand matters of God...and yet, somehow, we can't put it down and leave it alone...while simultaneously being forced to. It's really a wild thing! - But with that said...it's a very tough pill to swallow that "our universal locale" is more relevant than "the universal locale". There is probably a very good reason why we're saddled with talking about this universe as though it is 'ours'. There is probably a very good reason why we can't duck our onus of this locale...regardless of how much our 'lying mouths' would prefer to play dodgeball with the point. Things mean stuff!

@clousems said in #210:

@Sleepy_Gary No—what I’m saying is that if you believe in or suppose a cruel God, you can rationally argue his cruelty. If you believe in or suppose a kind God, you can rationally argue his kindness. If you try to start from a rational perspective to make a moral judgement of God, the human mind won’t be able to comprehend all of the necessary data to make an informed decision, both due to the sheer amount of information and the existence of information that humans do not possess.

I would correct your statement from all I’ve heard argued in this thread and elsewhere to say that there are plenty of rational and logical arguments for god being cruel; one rational and logical argument for the question being invalid (which I would argue extends to the entire concept of religion itself); and zero rational and logical arguments for god being good.

@clousems said in #210: > @Sleepy_Gary No—what I’m saying is that if you believe in or suppose a cruel God, you can rationally argue his cruelty. If you believe in or suppose a kind God, you can rationally argue his kindness. If you try to start from a rational perspective to make a moral judgement of God, the human mind won’t be able to comprehend all of the necessary data to make an informed decision, both due to the sheer amount of information and the existence of information that humans do not possess. I would correct your statement from all I’ve heard argued in this thread and elsewhere to say that there are plenty of rational and logical arguments for god being cruel; one rational and logical argument for the question being invalid (which I would argue extends to the entire concept of religion itself); and zero rational and logical arguments for god being good.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #213:

I would correct your statement from all I’ve heard argued in this thread and elsewhere to say that there are plenty of rational and logical arguments for god being cruel; one rational and logical argument for the question being invalid (which I would argue extends to the entire concept of religion itself); and zero rational and logical arguments for god being good.

Easy enough to fix that. A pretty common one:

Supposing the existence of God, God created all that is good and makes life worth living. By engaging in this conversation, you are still alive, which means that you believe life to be worth living. Ergo, God is good.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #213: > I would correct your statement from all I’ve heard argued in this thread and elsewhere to say that there are plenty of rational and logical arguments for god being cruel; one rational and logical argument for the question being invalid (which I would argue extends to the entire concept of religion itself); and zero rational and logical arguments for god being good. Easy enough to fix that. A pretty common one: Supposing the existence of God, God created all that is good and makes life worth living. By engaging in this conversation, you are still alive, which means that you believe life to be worth living. Ergo, God is good.

@clousems said in #214:

Easy enough to fix that. A pretty common one:

Supposing the existence of God, God created all that is good and makes life worth living. By engaging in this conversation, you are still alive, which means that you believe life to be worth living. Ergo, God is good.

But god also created (or allowed to exist within his creation) an innumerable amount more suffering and evil than good. Since god is omnipotent, this was unnecessary and hence god is cruel.

@clousems said in #214: > Easy enough to fix that. A pretty common one: > > Supposing the existence of God, God created all that is good and makes life worth living. By engaging in this conversation, you are still alive, which means that you believe life to be worth living. Ergo, God is good. But god also created (or allowed to exist within his creation) an innumerable amount more suffering and evil than good. Since god is omnipotent, this was unnecessary and hence god is cruel.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #215:

But god also created (or allowed to exist within his creation) an innumerable amount more suffering and evil than good.

Proof?

@Sleepy_Gary said in #215: > But god also created (or allowed to exist within his creation) an innumerable amount more suffering and evil than good. Proof?

@Sleepy_Gary said in #205:

However, if this were the case, then why does someone who follows all of Christian ethical codes - EXCEPT for believing in god - still go to hell. I could do everything right except not believe in god, and still burn in hell for all eternity. That is very cruel.

Hell is the absence of God, not necessarily a burning place with chains and lakes of fire. You can blame that image on Dante and also the Good old Greeks with their Hades depictions. Hell is still eternal suffering, as to what that may look like there are many possibilities.

Some think it is all the opposites of good in the world, with the idea that since hell is the absence of God and since God is the essence of good, then hell would be the opposite of him.

Others think that because God created us that Hell is the ceased existence of a person, as what does not exist is not important and truly has no matter in anything. What could be more awful than being truly unimportant and non existent. Existing is a beautiful and good thing so the opposite would be ceasing that good thing.

You get the point I hope. So Hell would logically be a lack of God in those scenarios. Now both of things are still awful and horrible things and no father would want to put his children in such a place. However I must highlight that you said that because one does not believe they would go to hell according to Christian faith, that you have inaccurately summarized the Christian faith. It is not a matter of belief for in the scriptures it states that even the demons believe they in God. It is accepting and serving that God (not in like a gotta follow the rules kind of way) that brings one salvation. Interestingly the scriptures also state that we receive salvation now, not later. We are currently not truly living life in its fullest and we are saved in this worldly life and that beyond. All that to say that it’s not just that one does not believe in God, that sends them to hell, but it is the outright rejection of him. It is saying to God, you are not important enough to me. I believe every sin can be put down as diminishing the importance of something. For example Thievery is diminishing the importance of ownership and murder is diminishing the importance of life. Rejecting God is the greatest diminishment of all, no? Would down playing the one who supposedly is the essence of all that is good not be the greatest sin of all? Hell is the honoring of that diminishment. If God is not important then see what reality is like without him. That is hell.

God does not want this for us, but he respects us enough to give us what we request. He is also a just and logical God as well. We can’t reject him and get Heaven and he is the essence of it. God is a good father. A father will let a child ruin their life if they really wish it, but he will do all he can to show the child not to do it. (We could bring up predestination but I’m Anglican so whomp whomp)

Consider this please, I love and respect your good points, they’re wonderful points to bring up, and the right ones to consider

Edit: just wanted to add that this is the justification of whether or not such a God is good, the matter or whether or not there is such a God is a whole different question.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #205: > However, if this were the case, then why does someone who follows all of Christian ethical codes - EXCEPT for believing in god - still go to hell. I could do everything right except not believe in god, and still burn in hell for all eternity. That is very cruel. Hell is the absence of God, not necessarily a burning place with chains and lakes of fire. You can blame that image on Dante and also the Good old Greeks with their Hades depictions. Hell is still eternal suffering, as to what that may look like there are many possibilities. Some think it is all the opposites of good in the world, with the idea that since hell is the absence of God and since God is the essence of good, then hell would be the opposite of him. Others think that because God created us that Hell is the ceased existence of a person, as what does not exist is not important and truly has no matter in anything. What could be more awful than being truly unimportant and non existent. Existing is a beautiful and good thing so the opposite would be ceasing that good thing. You get the point I hope. So Hell would logically be a lack of God in those scenarios. Now both of things are still awful and horrible things and no father would want to put his children in such a place. However I must highlight that you said that because one does not believe they would go to hell according to Christian faith, that you have inaccurately summarized the Christian faith. It is not a matter of belief for in the scriptures it states that even the demons believe they in God. It is accepting and serving that God (not in like a gotta follow the rules kind of way) that brings one salvation. Interestingly the scriptures also state that we receive salvation now, not later. We are currently not truly living life in its fullest and we are saved in this worldly life and that beyond. All that to say that it’s not just that one does not believe in God, that sends them to hell, but it is the outright rejection of him. It is saying to God, you are not important enough to me. I believe every sin can be put down as diminishing the importance of something. For example Thievery is diminishing the importance of ownership and murder is diminishing the importance of life. Rejecting God is the greatest diminishment of all, no? Would down playing the one who supposedly is the essence of all that is good not be the greatest sin of all? Hell is the honoring of that diminishment. If God is not important then see what reality is like without him. That is hell. God does not want this for us, but he respects us enough to give us what we request. He is also a just and logical God as well. We can’t reject him and get Heaven and he is the essence of it. God is a good father. A father will let a child ruin their life if they really wish it, but he will do all he can to show the child not to do it. (We could bring up predestination but I’m Anglican so whomp whomp) Consider this please, I love and respect your good points, they’re wonderful points to bring up, and the right ones to consider Edit: just wanted to add that this is the justification of whether or not such a God is good, the matter or whether or not there is such a God is a whole different question.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #218:

www.google.com/search?q=does+suffering+exist

That's not what I'm asking for proof of. You asserted that the amount of good on Earth is exceeded by the bad.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #218: > www.google.com/search?q=does+suffering+exist That's not what I'm asking for proof of. You asserted that the amount of good on Earth is exceeded by the bad.

@Lemontang said in #198:

As Sleepy Gary has said, to give a God the attributes of being all knowing, all loving, and all powerful creates an immediate logical paradox in the problem of evil.

Firstly, assuming you enjoy a (hopefully) good read...check out what's been said here for additional context:

https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=22#212

All Powerful:

From our perspective, yes, God has this attribute...but I'd posit that it's actually a mere side-effect, and is actually an attribute of everything which is bending to His Meaning, His Will, and His Person, which is simply 'Perfect Love'.

Interestingly, this is the exact same effect as saddling Him with responsibility for 'the flood', and/or any appropriate/applicable metaphor/meaning thereof.

God is Life, therefore, it is not the presence of Him that brings upon death...it is, literally, a lack of His Presence.

"If You don't follow Me and stay under my protective umbrella, you will die! And I don't want that, and you don't want that. Please. I implore you to seek only Perfect Love! I promise! It's the only thing that anyone actually wants!" - God

A few good metaphors would be the following:

"Please, My little newborn, I have brought you into existence to share life and only the best that this world has to offer...and so that you may express and experience (only) life and (only) love.

But, there are some things about being alive that you have to know...

Now, I know antifreeze looks as though it tastes great!

But, please, only suckle from My breast. It's what's best for everyone." - God (paraphrased)

"Please, I know that there are only so many apples that you can find and eat...but please don't hold-out/steal from your neighbour! Share with each other! Care for each other!

Sleep with two eyes closed and dream only of love...

...rather than with an extra full belly and with one eye open; while not dreaming only of love while asleep; and attempting to stave of catastrophic psychoses while awake." - God (paraphrased)

And, of course, after 'our mouths' get done with our masterful ability for rational thinking, logic, and insight...we end up with:

"God said that if we don't obey Him, that then He'll kill us." - human beings projecting 14 billion years of 'debacle of death' and 'abuse of life' within this universal locale.

And, no different than People who've gone 40 years sober...every now and again we end up with:

"God is the definition of 'Sweetheart' 'Cool' and 'Worthwhile', and He only wants us to express and experience His love." - Human Beings

Again, we can see how easily we, by default, superimpose our own projections upon Him.

In other words, we might be a bit stuck thinking about Him from our analog perspective and analog logic, afforded to us by this analog universal locale...and our default would probably include all kinds of flawed and backwards logic.

For instance, we might think that when God needs to get across town as fast as possible, that He might "know" when all of the lights change and then speed up and zig-zag to perfectly calculate and catch all the green lights...or that He might use his "power" to change speed limits and/or swipe vehicles out of His path...but that's probably our analog locale, and our analog logic, limiting our perception of the matter.

For Him, cars would change lanes to make way for Him.

Not because 'they see Him coming and dare not impede the Almighty'...but because they were going to change out of His lane anyway, in order to meet their own turn-offs and reasons for changing lanes.

...

At least, this is what WOULD occur if everyone was using their vehicles with good and godly behaviour, and in order to express and experience only love and never selfishness...

...and...

...perhaps...

...even if we weren't.

Anyway, as far as 'all powerful' goes...I'm curious how many people have stopped (or started) smoking cigarettes...without FIRST having the WILL to do so?

I'm curious how many people are able to exercise their will to smoke without first having to go buy a pack, find a fire to light it, put it to their lips, and inhale...or how many people are able to exercise their will to stop smoking without first adamantly arguing the truth against what our lying mouths have to say...aka 'fighting a barrage of cravings'.

(It's worth bearing in mind that both smoking and quitting smoking are only possible at the metaphysical expense of, and the ingredients of, 14 billion years of all kinds of random life and death events, and random predator-prey events, and random exploiter-exploited events, and many other catastrophic events...as well as...undoubtedly...some loving events as well...such as committed parents attempting to expand the family.)

But again, in a digital locale, things might work a little bit differently than the micromanaged and analog context of life that we're used to, here.

I once heard a guru describe the frustrating sensation of first inhabiting these bodies, where we need to learn to use them, and can't even so much as move our arm/hand/fingers in the way that we intend/want/will them to move, without some dedicated practice first.

This probably entails some of what I mean by 'analog' locale...and I hope that this does a good job of explaining/hinting at the necessary gap between our perception of Him, and the reality of Him.

When it becomes clear that what we call 'physical' can't possibly have predated that which is metaphysical...when we understand that no cigarette was ever smoked (or not smoked) without the will to do so first being there...when we understand that no marriage bed was ever sullied with infidelity without the will for one partner to break the trust of the other...then the clinical divide between 'analog' and 'digital' becomes obvious.

The reality of 'Meaning' and the fiction of 'no (objective) meaning' becomes concrete.
A complete paradigm shift occurs, and "authority" is replaced with Authority.

When a marriage bed is spoiled with infidelity...a massive and systemic, quasi-powerful, monolith has been introduced.

It has no weight, it has no colour, it has no obvious history, it has no obvious time span where it began to exist, and it has no obvious locale where it exists and where it then ceases to exist.

It's obvious that 'the metaphysical' is concrete and has direct ties with 'meaning'...and that the physical expressions within this context of experience, are sand.

It's not a coincidence that we sometimes find our lying mouths attempting to proclaim the meaninglessness of our physical experience...and it's not a coincidence that we hear it loudest right at the point where we might be tempted to betray the trust of our loved ones and/or our neighbours in a myriad of different ways...directly/indirectly...intentional/unintentionally...obviously/counter-intuitively...etc.

The metaphysical underpinnings, the meaning, are what dictate the fact that:

"When there is war anywhere, then there is war everywhere."

And, obviously, it is not the case that "war just happens and we don't know how"...where now it's up to both the whip-cracker and the whip-welted to assign their own subjective and religious meaning to it...or even feigning as though they have the option of opting out and denying its 'meaning' altogether.

Consider that there are two roommates.
Consider that One wants peace, and one wants war.

Which of these is free to express and experience their reality to their heart's (never) content?
Which of these is not free to express and experience their reality and their heart's content?

Imagine the asinine insult when one roommate likes to break things for fun, and boast about it...while the Other, Who provides everything in the First Place, is non-stop fixing what's being broken...while the warmonger demands it be fixed quicker...and while demanding more things to break...leaving the Peacemaker little to no time to enjoy its creation as He intended.

And imagine that the warmonger happily contrives its own religions...attempts to write "Meaning" out of existence...boasting about its "freedom (to break and exploit)"...and all based on the fundamental belief that their roommate doesn't even exist...that all they have they created themselves...and that everything just fixes itself by magic...and that it owes the existence of its life only to itself and its parents.

It's not a coincidence that it is impossible to to say, "There is no meaning," without exercising the highest order of hypocrisy...as that very sentence...and every motivation to express it...begs and the objective existence of 'meaning'...and proves that assertion completely defunct as soon as it's uttered.

This is the fundamental paradigm and underpinnings of everything that our ocular capacities can see around us...and what our more clandestine qualities can sense.

All Knowing:

Again, just like "All Powerful", this is a bit of a weird and awkward point of view.
Again, our analog paradigm probably limits our imagination.

And, again, it's not that He so much "knows" that the die will arrive as a '4'...it's that 'His will be done' is the law.

So, whatever best expresses His meaning and His Nature, occurs.

The analog aspect of micromanagement probably isn't present for Him.

The idea of Him being 'all powerful' and 'all knowing', therefore, are basically moot points.

We can see where, from our point of view, these ideas make some sense...but the world might be unbelievably vast and vibrant...compared to the imaginations of those who've only ever lived in Kansas.

All Loving:

Yes...you guessed it...more awkward phrasing.

God is not so much 'a thing' (analog) as He is 'a Meaning' (digital), and probably even 'All Meaning, Itself'.

That meaning is probably 'Perfect Love'.

It says: "In the beginning was the Word."
It does not say: "In the beginning was the Speaker."

In my view, it makes almost no sense that anyone, aside from myself, could have written such a bizarre and specific statement about His Nature from within this universal locale...but it makes sense when it's understood that we share some of His DNA and that He is the fundamental underpinning of all.

It's entirely possible that just like the Father who is adamantly against the son who is convicted of a heinous crime...but is in a very real way responsible of the existence of that son's life in the first place...so it may be with our Father in Heaven.

--

--
-

To add, if God were to exist with these attributes it would be expected that he would be in plain sight and not hidden to most; particularly the open-minded agnostics that have given him the serious time of day.

God is thoroughly hidden both from and by our vested and lying mouth, that wants to take credit for creation when convenient, based on the mere fact that it finds itself here to experience it...and that would...out of sour grapes...deny the locale which we've left behind...in order to champion the subtle qualities of the unique taste of fecal matter on the flavour palette...or the excellent sleep which is afforded by large rocks and sore backs...because it's actually "better sleep" because it's "building character".

God is thoroughly hidden from the lying mouth that blathers on and on about "I want another bottle of booze"...while speaking over our voice which is trying to say, "I want to be sober for the rest of my life".

It's the part of the alcoholic which wants sobriety which reflects his true self and not his lying tongue.
And it's that same part that reflects our God in Heaven.
And, dollar to dimes, it's the same one which can identify Him, know Him, and see Him everywhere that He's located...and everywhere He's not.

If God were to exist within this universal locale with these attributes, namely being Perfect Love, Life, Truth, Innocence...with the side effects of what looks like, from our perspective, being 'all powerful/knowing/loving', then nobody would ever have chosen to break their partner's trust, and infidelity would be no more than a matter of hypothetical science-fiction, as all, here, would reflect only Him.

Isn't it an amazing thing that the actual instance of science-fiction has the ability to convince us that it is real and that its Cause is what ought be questioned?

If you like, you could review some additional thoughts on the matter between #53-#56 found here:

https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#53
https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#54
https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#55
https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#56

But the main point I want to get at, for the time being, is that the lying mouth which we experience within this locale...

The one that would help influence/convince us to hold-out and/or steal from a friend...
The one that would help influence/convince us to practice infidelity...
The one that would help contrive whatever excuses it needed in order to justify its misbehaviour...
The one that uses meaning, itself, to disavow the existence of meaning altogether...

That one, there, probably can't admit its knowledge of God any easier than a toddler can admit that they ate the birthday cake after smearing the icing all over its face...ignorant of the fact that everyone can actually see the evidence of the truth.

In other words...our best logical and rational systems will have ungodly influence and ungodly blindspots where He would have to be very difficult for our 'lying mouths' to see...but that says nothing about our ability to see Him.

As we share His DNA, as we are alive, we know Him well.

It was a very effective way for our ungodly and lying mouths to convince the people who came in His Name, to commit the most atrocious and ungodly, unloving, acts of misbehaviour.

We can find those who use our lying mouth to claim to know Him, yet do ungodly things.
We can find those who use our lying mouth to claim that we don't know Him, yet do godly things.
Likewise, we can find those who use our lying mouth to claim that we know Him, and to godly things.
Likewise, we can find those who use our lying mouth to claim that we don't know Him, and do ungodly things.

There is nowhere to run.
There is nowhere to hide.

It's all seen.

And, it's not a mystery that just as the ungodly lying mouth misappropriated His Word...

So it's done its best to misappropriate the meaning of "the eye"...while simultaneously using it to write 'His meaning' and/or 'meaning itself' out of the same reality which 'meaning itself' creates/created.

Also, I would posit that it is quite likely that our lying mouths are what is ground to dust alongside our bodies, while we live on with Him, much wiser, and much more willing to do His will.

I said it somewhere in those 4 long posts, but I'll say it again, here:

It's extremely unlikely that we didn't have an argument, with God, about how things should be.

It's extremely unlikely that we slammed the door to Heaven in what would have manifested as a 'big bang', here.

It's extremely unlikely that we haven't been given the opportunity to say, "You're right, God, we're wrong. It's better when only you are fundamental and integral with and to everything, everywhere, all of the time, and without any exception, at all, whatsoever. We concede our point and wish to never argue it again. May Your will be done."

After all, on Monday, we reflected ungodliness. We wish we hadn't.
On Tuesday, we reflected His will. We're glad we did.

Who knows what Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday will bring?
Hopefully less of the former and more of the latter!

But there is a very strong chance that at the end of this debate, we'll have the option to rest our lying mouth and to realize our true self and our actual wants and needs.

The idea that this analog and universal locale predates the human spirit, is thoroughly negligible.

Most likely, and by far, it's the other way around.

The idea that we're products of it, instead of that its ungodly attributes are reflecting our own ungodly influence, is highly questionable.

Thank God that it's not our lying mouths which dictate the mandates of all reality!
Thank God that He is Love/Truth/Life/Innocence!

We've never seen such a Cool Kid in all of existence.
We can't even begin to imagine.

The closest we can get is when we're at our very best...and not what our lying mouths that want to redefine "very best" as "strongest" or "most powerful" or "most beautiful according to beauty standards"...but our best as Is defined by people choosing loving fidelity instead of breaking the trust of their loved ones with ungodly and unloving misbehaviour.

Honesty, empathy, sacrifice, kindness, hope, forgiveness, reconciliation, caring, sharing, trust, etc., etc., etc., we know the list...

The Epitome of these.

@Lemontang said in #198: > As Sleepy Gary has said, to give a God the attributes of being all knowing, all loving, and all powerful creates an immediate logical paradox in the problem of evil. Firstly, assuming you enjoy a (hopefully) good read...check out what's been said here for additional context: https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=22#212 - All Powerful: From our perspective, yes, God has this attribute...but I'd posit that it's actually a mere side-effect, and is actually an attribute of everything which is bending to His Meaning, His Will, and His Person, which is simply 'Perfect Love'. Interestingly, this is the exact same effect as saddling Him with responsibility for 'the flood', and/or any appropriate/applicable metaphor/meaning thereof. God is Life, therefore, it is not the presence of Him that brings upon death...it is, literally, a lack of His Presence. "If You don't follow Me and stay under my protective umbrella, you will die! And I don't want that, and you don't want that. Please. I implore you to seek only Perfect Love! I promise! It's the only thing that anyone actually wants!" - God A few good metaphors would be the following: "Please, My little newborn, I have brought you into existence to share life and only the best that this world has to offer...and so that you may express and experience (only) life and (only) love. But, there are some things about being alive that you have to know... Now, I know antifreeze looks as though it tastes great! But, please, only suckle from My breast. It's what's best for everyone." - God (paraphrased) - "Please, I know that there are only so many apples that you can find and eat...but please don't hold-out/steal from your neighbour! Share with each other! Care for each other! Sleep with two eyes closed and dream only of love... ...rather than with an extra full belly and with one eye open; while not dreaming only of love while asleep; and attempting to stave of catastrophic psychoses while awake." - God (paraphrased) - And, of course, after 'our mouths' get done with our masterful ability for rational thinking, logic, and insight...we end up with: "God said that if we don't obey Him, that then He'll kill us." - human beings projecting 14 billion years of 'debacle of death' and 'abuse of life' within this universal locale. And, no different than People who've gone 40 years sober...every now and again we end up with: "God is the definition of 'Sweetheart' 'Cool' and 'Worthwhile', and He only wants us to express and experience His love." - Human Beings - Again, we can see how easily we, by default, superimpose our own projections upon Him. In other words, we might be a bit stuck thinking about Him from our analog perspective and analog logic, afforded to us by this analog universal locale...and our default would probably include all kinds of flawed and backwards logic. For instance, we might think that when God needs to get across town as fast as possible, that He might "know" when all of the lights change and then speed up and zig-zag to perfectly calculate and catch all the green lights...or that He might use his "power" to change speed limits and/or swipe vehicles out of His path...but that's probably our analog locale, and our analog logic, limiting our perception of the matter. For Him, cars would change lanes to make way for Him. Not because 'they see Him coming and dare not impede the Almighty'...but because they were going to change out of His lane anyway, in order to meet their own turn-offs and reasons for changing lanes. ... At least, this is what WOULD occur if everyone was using their vehicles with good and godly behaviour, and in order to express and experience only love and never selfishness... ...and... ...perhaps... ...even if we weren't. - Anyway, as far as 'all powerful' goes...I'm curious how many people have stopped (or started) smoking cigarettes...without FIRST having the WILL to do so? I'm curious how many people are able to exercise their will to smoke without first having to go buy a pack, find a fire to light it, put it to their lips, and inhale...or how many people are able to exercise their will to stop smoking without first adamantly arguing the truth against what our lying mouths have to say...aka 'fighting a barrage of cravings'. (It's worth bearing in mind that both smoking and quitting smoking are only possible at the metaphysical expense of, and the ingredients of, 14 billion years of all kinds of random life and death events, and random predator-prey events, and random exploiter-exploited events, and many other catastrophic events...as well as...undoubtedly...some loving events as well...such as committed parents attempting to expand the family.) But again, in a digital locale, things might work a little bit differently than the micromanaged and analog context of life that we're used to, here. I once heard a guru describe the frustrating sensation of first inhabiting these bodies, where we need to learn to use them, and can't even so much as move our arm/hand/fingers in the way that we intend/want/will them to move, without some dedicated practice first. This probably entails some of what I mean by 'analog' locale...and I hope that this does a good job of explaining/hinting at the necessary gap between our perception of Him, and the reality of Him. When it becomes clear that what we call 'physical' can't possibly have predated that which is metaphysical...when we understand that no cigarette was ever smoked (or not smoked) without the will to do so first being there...when we understand that no marriage bed was ever sullied with infidelity without the will for one partner to break the trust of the other...then the clinical divide between 'analog' and 'digital' becomes obvious. The reality of 'Meaning' and the fiction of 'no (objective) meaning' becomes concrete. A complete paradigm shift occurs, and "authority" is replaced with Authority. When a marriage bed is spoiled with infidelity...a massive and systemic, quasi-powerful, monolith has been introduced. It has no weight, it has no colour, it has no obvious history, it has no obvious time span where it began to exist, and it has no obvious locale where it exists and where it then ceases to exist. It's obvious that 'the metaphysical' is concrete and has direct ties with 'meaning'...and that the physical expressions within this context of experience, are sand. It's not a coincidence that we sometimes find our lying mouths attempting to proclaim the meaninglessness of our physical experience...and it's not a coincidence that we hear it loudest right at the point where we might be tempted to betray the trust of our loved ones and/or our neighbours in a myriad of different ways...directly/indirectly...intentional/unintentionally...obviously/counter-intuitively...etc. The metaphysical underpinnings, the meaning, are what dictate the fact that: "When there is war anywhere, then there is war everywhere." And, obviously, it is not the case that "war just happens and we don't know how"...where now it's up to both the whip-cracker and the whip-welted to assign their own subjective and religious meaning to it...or even feigning as though they have the option of opting out and denying its 'meaning' altogether. - Consider that there are two roommates. Consider that One wants peace, and one wants war. Which of these is free to express and experience their reality to their heart's (never) content? Which of these is not free to express and experience their reality and their heart's content? Imagine the asinine insult when one roommate likes to break things for fun, and boast about it...while the Other, Who provides everything in the First Place, is non-stop fixing what's being broken...while the warmonger demands it be fixed quicker...and while demanding more things to break...leaving the Peacemaker little to no time to enjoy its creation as He intended. And imagine that the warmonger happily contrives its own religions...attempts to write "Meaning" out of existence...boasting about its "freedom (to break and exploit)"...and all based on the fundamental belief that their roommate doesn't even exist...that all they have they created themselves...and that everything just fixes itself by magic...and that it owes the existence of its life only to itself and its parents. It's not a coincidence that it is impossible to to say, "There is no meaning," without exercising the highest order of hypocrisy...as that very sentence...and every motivation to express it...begs and the objective existence of 'meaning'...and proves that assertion completely defunct as soon as it's uttered. This is the fundamental paradigm and underpinnings of everything that our ocular capacities can see around us...and what our more clandestine qualities can sense. - All Knowing: Again, just like "All Powerful", this is a bit of a weird and awkward point of view. Again, our analog paradigm probably limits our imagination. And, again, it's not that He so much "knows" that the die will arrive as a '4'...it's that 'His will be done' is the law. So, whatever best expresses His meaning and His Nature, occurs. The analog aspect of micromanagement probably isn't present for Him. The idea of Him being 'all powerful' and 'all knowing', therefore, are basically moot points. We can see where, from our point of view, these ideas make some sense...but the world might be unbelievably vast and vibrant...compared to the imaginations of those who've only ever lived in Kansas. - All Loving: Yes...you guessed it...more awkward phrasing. God is not so much 'a thing' (analog) as He is 'a Meaning' (digital), and probably even 'All Meaning, Itself'. That meaning is probably 'Perfect Love'. It says: "In the beginning was the Word." It does not say: "In the beginning was the Speaker." In my view, it makes almost no sense that anyone, aside from myself, could have written such a bizarre and specific statement about His Nature from within this universal locale...but it makes sense when it's understood that we share some of His DNA and that He is the fundamental underpinning of all. It's entirely possible that just like the Father who is adamantly against the son who is convicted of a heinous crime...but is in a very real way responsible of the existence of that son's life in the first place...so it may be with our Father in Heaven. - -- --- -- - > To add, if God were to exist with these attributes it would be expected that he would be in plain sight and not hidden to most; particularly the open-minded agnostics that have given him the serious time of day. God is thoroughly hidden both from and by our vested and lying mouth, that wants to take credit for creation when convenient, based on the mere fact that it finds itself here to experience it...and that would...out of sour grapes...deny the locale which we've left behind...in order to champion the subtle qualities of the unique taste of fecal matter on the flavour palette...or the excellent sleep which is afforded by large rocks and sore backs...because it's actually "better sleep" because it's "building character". God is thoroughly hidden from the lying mouth that blathers on and on about "I want another bottle of booze"...while speaking over our voice which is trying to say, "I want to be sober for the rest of my life". It's the part of the alcoholic which wants sobriety which reflects his true self and not his lying tongue. And it's that same part that reflects our God in Heaven. And, dollar to dimes, it's the same one which can identify Him, know Him, and see Him everywhere that He's located...and everywhere He's not. - If God were to exist within this universal locale with these attributes, namely being Perfect Love, Life, Truth, Innocence...with the side effects of what looks like, from our perspective, being 'all powerful/knowing/loving', then nobody would ever have chosen to break their partner's trust, and infidelity would be no more than a matter of hypothetical science-fiction, as all, here, would reflect only Him. Isn't it an amazing thing that the actual instance of science-fiction has the ability to convince us that it is real and that its Cause is what ought be questioned? - If you like, you could review some additional thoughts on the matter between #53-#56 found here: https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#53 https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#54 https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#55 https://lichess.org/forum/off-topic-discussion/if-christian-god-existed-would-he-be-a-cruel-god?page=6#56 - But the main point I want to get at, for the time being, is that the lying mouth which we experience within this locale... The one that would help influence/convince us to hold-out and/or steal from a friend... The one that would help influence/convince us to practice infidelity... The one that would help contrive whatever excuses it needed in order to justify its misbehaviour... The one that uses meaning, itself, to disavow the existence of meaning altogether... That one, there, probably can't admit its knowledge of God any easier than a toddler can admit that they ate the birthday cake after smearing the icing all over its face...ignorant of the fact that everyone can actually see the evidence of the truth. In other words...our best logical and rational systems will have ungodly influence and ungodly blindspots where He would have to be very difficult for our 'lying mouths' to see...but that says nothing about our ability to see Him. As we share His DNA, as we are alive, we know Him well. It was a very effective way for our ungodly and lying mouths to convince the people who came in His Name, to commit the most atrocious and ungodly, unloving, acts of misbehaviour. We can find those who use our lying mouth to claim to know Him, yet do ungodly things. We can find those who use our lying mouth to claim that we don't know Him, yet do godly things. Likewise, we can find those who use our lying mouth to claim that we know Him, and to godly things. Likewise, we can find those who use our lying mouth to claim that we don't know Him, and do ungodly things. There is nowhere to run. There is nowhere to hide. It's all seen. And, it's not a mystery that just as the ungodly lying mouth misappropriated His Word... So it's done its best to misappropriate the meaning of "the eye"...while simultaneously using it to write 'His meaning' and/or 'meaning itself' out of the same reality which 'meaning itself' creates/created. - Also, I would posit that it is quite likely that our lying mouths are what is ground to dust alongside our bodies, while we live on with Him, much wiser, and much more willing to do His will. I said it somewhere in those 4 long posts, but I'll say it again, here: It's extremely unlikely that we didn't have an argument, with God, about how things should be. It's extremely unlikely that we slammed the door to Heaven in what would have manifested as a 'big bang', here. It's extremely unlikely that we haven't been given the opportunity to say, "You're right, God, we're wrong. It's better when only you are fundamental and integral with and to everything, everywhere, all of the time, and without any exception, at all, whatsoever. We concede our point and wish to never argue it again. May Your will be done." - After all, on Monday, we reflected ungodliness. We wish we hadn't. On Tuesday, we reflected His will. We're glad we did. Who knows what Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday will bring? Hopefully less of the former and more of the latter! But there is a very strong chance that at the end of this debate, we'll have the option to rest our lying mouth and to realize our true self and our actual wants and needs. - The idea that this analog and universal locale predates the human spirit, is thoroughly negligible. Most likely, and by far, it's the other way around. The idea that we're products of it, instead of that its ungodly attributes are reflecting our own ungodly influence, is highly questionable. - Thank God that it's not our lying mouths which dictate the mandates of all reality! Thank God that He is Love/Truth/Life/Innocence! We've never seen such a Cool Kid in all of existence. We can't even begin to imagine. The closest we can get is when we're at our very best...and not what our lying mouths that want to redefine "very best" as "strongest" or "most powerful" or "most beautiful according to beauty standards"...but our best as Is defined by people choosing loving fidelity instead of breaking the trust of their loved ones with ungodly and unloving misbehaviour. Honesty, empathy, sacrifice, kindness, hope, forgiveness, reconciliation, caring, sharing, trust, etc., etc., etc., we know the list... The Epitome of these. -

This topic has been archived and can no longer be replied to.