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if christian god existed, would he be a cruel god?

@Sleepy_Gary said in #175:

Except it was regularly used as a justification for slavery for almost 2000 years: news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/01/a-harvard-exhibit-on-slavery-and-christianity/

Yet it started as a religion that was particularly popular amongst slaves in Rome.

Many things have been used to justify slavery-- religion, appearance, genealogy, etc.-- but slavery is not a byproduct of any of them. It has always been a byproduct of human greed.
In fact, I'll go further: I'd argue that Christianity was the single largest force leading to the ABOLITION of slavery in much of the world. It lead to abolition both directly (i.e., through faith-based calls to abolish slavery on moral grounds) and indirectly (through its influence on liberal thought, which emphasizes equality).

@Sleepy_Gary said in #175: > Except it was regularly used as a justification for slavery for almost 2000 years: news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/01/a-harvard-exhibit-on-slavery-and-christianity/ Yet it started as a religion that was particularly popular amongst slaves in Rome. Many things have been used to justify slavery-- religion, appearance, genealogy, etc.-- but slavery is not a byproduct of any of them. It has always been a byproduct of human greed. In fact, I'll go further: I'd argue that Christianity was the single largest force leading to the ABOLITION of slavery in much of the world. It lead to abolition both directly (i.e., through faith-based calls to abolish slavery on moral grounds) and indirectly (through its influence on liberal thought, which emphasizes equality).

@Sleepy_Gary said in #181:

www.reddit.com/r/StandUpComedy/comments/1fqaepx/the_worst_sin/

Isn't it ironic, in a very meaningful way, that the pompous "Christian" judging others, while spewing slander and untruth from their mouth, and the pompous atheist, doing the same thing, are both guilty of committing the exact same ungodly infraction?

It's almost as if it doesn't really matter what one believes.

It's almost as if the unloving pomposity is the problem regardless of whatever one's mouth has them saying that they do or don't believe.

We can't play dodgeball with our reality, Sleepy_Gary...it has ties to the Truth.
We see the effects when we try...surely we can learn from our mistakes...make a change...and do a little bit better?

I'm ashamed of all of the ways that we bash God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf0qVVbMckU

@Sleepy_Gary said in #181: > www.reddit.com/r/StandUpComedy/comments/1fqaepx/the_worst_sin/ Isn't it ironic, in a very meaningful way, that the pompous "Christian" judging others, while spewing slander and untruth from their mouth, and the pompous atheist, doing the same thing, are both guilty of committing the exact same ungodly infraction? It's almost as if it doesn't really matter what one believes. It's almost as if the unloving pomposity is the problem regardless of whatever one's mouth has them saying that they do or don't believe. We can't play dodgeball with our reality, Sleepy_Gary...it has ties to the Truth. We see the effects when we try...surely we can learn from our mistakes...make a change...and do a little bit better? I'm ashamed of all of the ways that we bash God. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf0qVVbMckU

Thank you @clousems, it's extremely refreshing to have an actual logical thought enter this conversation on the side of Christianity.

I never intended to convey that slavery is a byproduct of religion, only that both the old and new testament permit it. I also understand that many (if not most) of the over 30,000 denominations of Christianity would consider slavery a sin, however literal interpretation of both the old and new testament allow it, as well as certain forms of rape and murder. Based on the bible being "the word of god" the only conclusion is that if the Christian god did exist exactly as laid out in both the old and new testament that they would be an extremely cruel being.

What are your thoughts on the matter? For me personally, it's hard to see either god or christianity as a whole as anything but cruel. Particularly when a large and politically involved group of christians view an apocalypse as the best outcome for humanity.

Thank you @clousems, it's extremely refreshing to have an actual logical thought enter this conversation on the side of Christianity. I never intended to convey that slavery is a byproduct of religion, only that both the old and new testament permit it. I also understand that many (if not most) of the over 30,000 denominations of Christianity would consider slavery a sin, however literal interpretation of both the old and new testament allow it, as well as certain forms of rape and murder. Based on the bible being "the word of god" the only conclusion is that if the Christian god did exist exactly as laid out in both the old and new testament that they would be an extremely cruel being. What are your thoughts on the matter? For me personally, it's hard to see either god or christianity as a whole as anything but cruel. Particularly when a large and politically involved group of christians view an apocalypse as the best outcome for humanity.

I am a Christian myself, but I also think that a lot of people get bogged down in the minutiae of the Bible, rather than looking at it as a whole. After all, how likely is it that a text that existed before the fall of Rome and has been constantly rewritten and politicized has not been subject to mistranslations and corruptions? Not very. (And frankly, I don't see the point in learning about the heritage of John the Baptist-- God ain't given out pop quizzes).

When you step back and look at the general ideas of the Bible/Christianity/Christian God, you get a picture of a faith that is pretty wholesome, regardless of your own belief set. A recurring theme is love for our fellow men-- the Great Commandment (which includes "The Golden Rule") is elevated by God himself above all religious and secular rules. Other recurring themes include the opportunities for redemption, good deeds being rewarded, evil being punished, encouraging charity, etc. I don't believe these themes are compatible with a "cruel" God or a "cruel" faith.

EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel

I am a Christian myself, but I also think that a lot of people get bogged down in the minutiae of the Bible, rather than looking at it as a whole. After all, how likely is it that a text that existed before the fall of Rome and has been constantly rewritten and politicized has not been subject to mistranslations and corruptions? Not very. (And frankly, I don't see the point in learning about the heritage of John the Baptist-- God ain't given out pop quizzes). When you step back and look at the general ideas of the Bible/Christianity/Christian God, you get a picture of a faith that is pretty wholesome, regardless of your own belief set. A recurring theme is love for our fellow men-- the Great Commandment (which includes "The Golden Rule") is elevated by God himself above all religious and secular rules. Other recurring themes include the opportunities for redemption, good deeds being rewarded, evil being punished, encouraging charity, etc. I don't believe these themes are compatible with a "cruel" God or a "cruel" faith. EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel

@clousems said in #185:

I am a Christian myself, but I also think that a lot of people get bogged down in the minutiae of the Bible, rather than looking at it as a whole. After all, how likely is it that a text that existed before the fall of Rome and has been constantly rewritten and politicized has not been subject to mistranslations and corruptions? Not very. (And frankly, I don't see the point in learning about the heritage of John the Baptist-- God ain't given out pop quizzes).

When you step back and look at the general ideas of the Bible/Christianity/Christian God, you get a picture of a faith that is pretty wholesome, regardless of your own belief set. A recurring theme is love for our fellow men-- the Great Commandment (which includes "The Golden Rule") is elevated by God himself above all religious and secular rules. Other recurring themes include the opportunities for redemption, good deeds being rewarded, evil being punished, encouraging charity, etc. I don't believe these themes are compatible with a "cruel" God or a "cruel" faith.

EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel

How do you deal with the contradiction that god is all powerful/all good/all knowing (if you don’t believe this please correct me), and the fact that the universe is structured such that immeasurable needless suffering exists?

@clousems said in #185: > I am a Christian myself, but I also think that a lot of people get bogged down in the minutiae of the Bible, rather than looking at it as a whole. After all, how likely is it that a text that existed before the fall of Rome and has been constantly rewritten and politicized has not been subject to mistranslations and corruptions? Not very. (And frankly, I don't see the point in learning about the heritage of John the Baptist-- God ain't given out pop quizzes). > > When you step back and look at the general ideas of the Bible/Christianity/Christian God, you get a picture of a faith that is pretty wholesome, regardless of your own belief set. A recurring theme is love for our fellow men-- the Great Commandment (which includes "The Golden Rule") is elevated by God himself above all religious and secular rules. Other recurring themes include the opportunities for redemption, good deeds being rewarded, evil being punished, encouraging charity, etc. I don't believe these themes are compatible with a "cruel" God or a "cruel" faith. > > EDIT: Of course, I also realize that many believe the Bible to be completely infalliable, despite the potential for corruption over the years. This view would make it easier to support the idea that the Christian God is cruel How do you deal with the contradiction that god is all powerful/all good/all knowing (if you don’t believe this please correct me), and the fact that the universe is structured such that immeasurable needless suffering exists?

@Sleepy_Gary said in #186:

How do you deal with the contradiction that god is all powerful/all good/all knowing (if you don’t believe this please correct me), and the fact that the universe is structured such that immeasurable needless suffering exists?

The short answer: I don't really have a choice.
I don't believe we can approach God's decision making process from a rational perspective. If we could, then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #186: > How do you deal with the contradiction that god is all powerful/all good/all knowing (if you don’t believe this please correct me), and the fact that the universe is structured such that immeasurable needless suffering exists? The short answer: I don't really have a choice. I don't believe we can approach God's decision making process from a rational perspective. If we could, then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
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But no where in the Bible does it say slavery is immoral that includes Jesus said nothing.
It says Christian God is or is not good. If you think differently post the Proof.

But no where in the Bible does it say slavery is immoral that includes Jesus said nothing. It says Christian God is or is not good. If you think differently post the Proof.

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