if christian god existed, would he be a cruel god?

@Sleepy_Gary said in #50:

So we created the parasite worm that does nothing but eat children’s eye balls? Humans caused Pompeii to be wiped out by volcanoes?

I suppose in this case god would be cruel for creating us, knowing we would introduce untold suffering and evil? Or is there some other fairy tale BS that I’m missing here?

We are god so we signed up for this - from the omnipotent perspective, life and all its good and ill - must seem like quite the divine hoot to experience!

@xDoubledragon said in #1:

Only a true fair god wouldn't create hell and heaven but rather give you a life experience of what you want. It was your choice to experience this.

I want to see everyone expressing a perfect amount of love.
I want to see everyone experiencing a perfect amount of love.

I want to see everyone fed.
I want to see no violence, anywhere, at all.

I want to see only the mental health that perfect love affords.
I do not want to see any of the mental illnesses that a lack of perfect love causes.

So, on its face, the idea that "we are getting the lives that we want" is a blatant lie.

Regardless of what any person's lying mouth would have them claim as a reason to disagree with this perspective, it is clear that, when faced with hunger, violence, and mental illness, they immediately side with me, in truth.

Until I see those who disagree with me celebrate their own empty bellies, while needlessly being separated from their own deceased newborns...then it is obvious that those whose lying mouths have them claim allegiance with unloving ungodliness, are only deceiving themselves.

With that said, there is definitely a caveat where your idea does actually make very good sense...but its context will need to be understood a few paragraphs later within this post.

People, at war with themselves, look in the mirror and chastise themselves for lacking "beauty" and "status".
People, at war with their loved ones, fight and kill their own family and friends.
People, at war with other nations, wage kinetic war.

All of these derogatory instances are due only to the influence of instances of a lack of perfect love, and the precedent and protocol that these instances have foisted into our environment.

Regardless of our faith, belief, indoctrination, paradigm, life experience, happenstance of birth, etc., the truth of the matter, and the truth of our matter, is static, immutable, total, and real.

In fact, it is more real than the hands in front of our faces, and it is certainly more real than whatever fables we've contrived to serve as convenient alibis for our unloving misbehaviour, much less our self-serving and petulant proclivities and incentives for doing so.

The truth is more real than we are, because, obviously, it existed long before our bodies were ever here to reflect life.

The truth is more real than we are, because it's only capable of perfect judgment, where we are saddled with all kinds of miserable conscious and sub-conscious albatrosses of vested bias and illusions of separation between our one another.

It is not at all in question that these kinds of albatrosses would not be miserable, nor albatrosses, but would instead be experienced as conscious and sub-conscious boosts of joyful energy, that would be reflected in our material individual, familial, and global environment/psyche...if the precedent and protocol of our lives were taking place within the context of a history which reflected only the good behaviour, and good treatment of our one another, through perfect love.

In fact, perhaps we can just cut to the chase?

Say, Doubledragon, how would you like to experience life within a context where there is no ungodly influence to imprison our ability to realize the lives which we actually want?

Correctly, I think you've diagnosed the idea of "freedom" vs. Freedom.

Correctly, I think that you've diagnosed the paradox of both influence and freewill both being real at the same place and time.

Correctly, I think that you haven't taken for granted why it is that we would be here to witness this.

It looks as though you've correctly intuited that this locale and context of life offers "freedom" with the effect of slavery.

And, correctly, I think that you can intuit and perceive of another locale and context of life, which offers "slavery" with the effect of Freedom.

So, I'll ask again...

How would you like to live in a context where only 'flawless trust in one's neighbour' has ever been given the opportunity to manifest?

Would you be willing to always behave in a way that deserves perfect trust?

Would you be willing to always be your best self?

And if those are too difficult to answer...

Would you at least want to be willing to always behave in a way that deserves perfect trust, and which always reflects your actual self?

Would you want an opportunity to resign your "freedom" and your slavery in exchange for Freedom?
Would you want an opportunity to experience Freedom, even if our own lying mouths would have us call it "slavery"?

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, we are not free to realize the life that we actually want.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, those affected with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome will continue to be over-represented in jails and cemeteries, and under-represented in Ph.D exam rooms.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, the same son who condemned his drunken father for beating his mother, and swore that he'd never do likewise, ends up, 20 years later, doing the same thing to his own wife...and...of course...use his lying mouth to voice his and catastrophic pseudo-justifications for his misbehaviour.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, the same person who desperately would prefer to be 10 years sober, instead, is off to the local booze shop....and...of course...use their lying mouths to voice their weak and catastrophic pseudo-justifications for their misbehaviour.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, industries will exploit the same girls who were exploited and made vulnerable as children...and where she then, later in life, takes part in exploiting others....and...of course...use their lying mouths to voice their weak and catastrophic pseudo-justifications for their misbehaviour.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, that albino-Africans would be chased north, swearing that they would never mistreat others in the same way, only to return and do just as bad....and...of course...use their lying mouths to voice their weak and catastrophic pseudo-justifications for their misbehaviour.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, the same people who endured ungodly mistreatment in the 1940s, and swore that they would never mistreat others in the same way...would then, decades later, champion the exact same mistreatment against others....and...of course...use their lying mouths to voice their weak and catastrophic pseudo-justifications for their misbehaviour.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, people will be forced to understand that its their job to be preyed upon by those who have the ability to price gouge instead of offering the same fair deal that they'd want to be offered if the roles were reversed...and...of course...use their lying mouths to voice their weak and catastrophic pseudo-justifications for their misbehaviour.

You might have a very good point that so long as (ungodly) influence exists, we'll continue to have every incentive to justify our ungodly contributions to the context of life which we are living, and to use our lying mouths of catastrophic and vested interest, to feign ignorance of the Love, the Truth, the Life, and the Innocence from which our lives actually stem.

Doubledragon, you've correctly alluded to the problem with ungodliness/lack of perfect love, as defined by unloving misbehaviour that one wouldn't, oneself, want to suffer, and the precedent and protocol/influence that it can help cause or establish in subsequent generations throughout the timeline of history.

I'd posit that there is only one Reason, and Meaning, that you would be here to do so.

I'd posit that the Reason and Meaning would be the antithesis of what we consider as "religion/lack thereof".

I'd posit that the reason and meaning relate directly to the epitome of our reality, and to Reality, Itself.

@Sleepy_Gary said in #13

Saying “anything god does is fair cause he decides what’s fair” is a pretty weak argument. If the Bible is the basis of morality, then slavery is okay, as well as human trafficking of your own family.

Assuming you think owning another human being or selling your daughter for a goat is not a good thing to do, you’re already applying your subjective ethics on something that’s supposed to be the foundation of ethics (according to the Christian faith). Hence there is a framework of ethics outside of Christianity, and god would definitely classify as a cruel narcissistic being.

Obviously, 'Perfect-Love' is God's Word.
Obviously, it infinitely predates the New Testament.

"They will all know My Word. That Word is Love." - God
"And I will be the one to disseminate and slander Your Word in the process." - ungodliness

It's not a coincidence that one of the first ships to facilitate chattel slavery had "Jesus" in its name, or that it was part and parcel with heinous and unloving misbehaviour.

It's not a coincidence that John Hawkins' own journal entries spoke of hoping to come across villages where the men were away on a hunt so that they could more easily kidnap all the women and children.

It's not a coincidence that John Hawkins never cited the existence of anyone buying or selling enslaved Africans.

It's not a coincidence that Catholic Priests have earned the stigma that's attached to them, or that they demonstrate heinously unloving misbehaviour.

It's not a coincidence that the Catholic church has spent millions or billions trying to mitigate the damage to their image through PR strategies which only seem to enable and encourage these kinds of heinous abuses to continue, instead of spotlighting it and doing all that's possible in order to eradicate the misbehaviour.

It's not a coincidence that the Spanish inquisitions were heinously unloving, or that it was done in the name of a God Whose only commandment was that we love our one another, perfectly.

It's also not a coincidence that the metaphysical consequence of these instances of unloving misbehaviour, the metaphysical consequence of all of these instances of ungodliness, is acute.

And it's not a coincidence that the metaphysical consequence of all of this ungodliness is physically manifested and experienced within our collective day-to-day, consciously and subconsciously, directly and indirectly, throughout our physical environment and within our psyches.

Further, we needn't confine examples of ungodliness to those who profess to follow God's Word.

Any and all reflection of ungodliness causes what we see before us, here, today, in terms of needlessly catastrophic effects.

Obviously, God wants us to have nothing to do with any kind of slavery, much less chattel slavery.

Obviously, inflicting and experiencing chattel slavery is in direct conflict with the idea of loving our one another.

Obviously, ungodly people disseminating His Word, in His Name, does nothing to defuse the attributes of the reality in which we find ourselves.

Obviously, ungodly people disseminating His Word, in His Name, only makes the parameters of our universal locale that much more clear and concise.

The idea that this should be, the idea that this is as it is, can't be taken for granted.
And the idea that reality is without meaning, is impossible.

(As with anything else I've said, I'm happy to prove the mathematical metaphysics, just ask.)

"Perfect Love" is the only Writing on the only Wall...

And the presence of its antithesis does nothing to dissuade or argue against Its Existence.
The presence of its antithesis only makes it that much more clear and obvious, and solidifies it as "The Only Fact of the Only Matter".

Conflating "God's Word" with the mores, traditions, beliefs, folklore, systems, and religious paradigms and fundamentals, of the same Hebrew orthodoxy that conspired to have God on Earth killed after commanding us to love our one...only serves to prove and highlight the Reality of the Matter.

For instance, back in the 90s, there was a huge problem with blue killing red and red killing blue.

Nobody remembered who fired the first shot, and after a while it didn't even matter.

Retaliation, for its own sake, became its own purpose.

However, as soon as one side forgave the debt that is owed, the retaliation disappeared.

This is to say, simply, that "forgiveness works".

This has been true, this is true, and this will always be true.

It is a quality of Love.

So, we can be certain that Moses lied when he said that God helped him slay the Canaanites, and then pointed at the dead bodies as evidence of "God's will".

We can be certain that, just like the ships which sailed enslaved Africans, just like the abusive priests, just like the conquistadors, just like the KKK, just like the Hebrews 2000 years ago who professed God's Authority but then had Him killed when He appeared...Moses was absolutely no different...

...and we should shudder to think in how many ways we might be no different than them...

...and we would probably be very well served to correct any and all ungodly similarities within ourselves.

I'm curious, Sleepy_Gary, have we ever considered that God might be much more of a 'Meaning' than He is a 'thing'?

Have we ever considered that '?before?' and '?outside?' of this universe was/is/and will forever be, His Meaning?

Have we ever considered that, 'Love', 'Truth', 'Life', 'Innocence', and 'Meaning Itself' were all here long before our hominoid bodies were able to experience and reflect them?

Have we ever considered that we can't so much as offer a cogent science-fiction explanation for where/how life is created within this universe, and that what we call "create life" is merely the copying and xeroxing of it?

Have we ever considered that it's impossible to have the container for something, without that 'something' first being in existence?

For instance, it would be impossible for a salt-shaker to exist, without there first being salt.

Have we considered that so it is within this universal locale in regards to the life which is reflecting within it?
Have we considered that so it is in regards to the consciousness which our bodies reflect?

Have we ever considered a God (perfect Love) that is the antithesis of whatever we're capable of projecting (imperfect Love) when thinking about what He might be like; how things (don't) work; and what He might (not) have to do with the reality which we're experiencing?

Have we ever considered that what we call "evolved traits" are actually, in fact, nothing more than fatal mutations?

99% of the species of life on this planet are extinct.

When we call 'tomorrow' to the stand, it testifies that we will have been no exception.

According to 'tomorrow', obviously, the long-necked giraffe is every bit of a fatal mutation as the short-necked giraffe!

According to our best science, there's been a long-standing process of accidental and random mutation...where this process of mixing life with death has produced a situation where stuff is accidentally thrown at a wall in order to see what sticks...and where what sticks is then qualified as "evolved"...until it's then also accidentally killed off.

By the way, the idea that something more efficient than the human body couldn't ever have been expressed, is as flawed as the idea that it's impossible that the person to cure cancer may have just had their crib bombed, or their parents killed before they could conceive.

I'm just curious if we've yet considered these things...

...or are we still calling death "life", and fatal mutations "evolved"?

If you're sincere, then it should at least be an interesting conversation to have!

@Toscani said in #39

Do you believe that questioning God's nature is blasphemous, or is it a necessary part of faith? How do you reconcile the existence of suffering with the idea of a loving God?

If we're hoping to accurately diagnose God, then It might be very important that when questioning God's Nature, that we consider that He may be perfect Love, Truth, Life, and Innocence.

It might be very important to assume that He is so good that He makes our very own newborns look guilty by comparison.

As such, it might make very good sense to cross-check if our ideas of "His answers" and/or "the answers" are stemming from One Such a Source, or if our answers are projections of our own ungodly reflections, best guesses, and assumptions.

In other words, if someone is consciously/subconsciously, intentionally/unintentionally, directly/indirectly always throwing stones and/or excusing the throwing of stones...then their default ideas and assumptions of "another being" would necessarily entail that it, too, throw stones.

If you scroll up, it's proven that Moses was necessarily lying when he slandered God and announced that the bodies of the dead Canaanites that he left in his wake were evidence of "God's will".

We can easily identify all of the means, motive, and opportunity present with Moses' lying mouth.
It's really not complicated.

And, just like Moses, it's worth considering that his fellow Hebrews were no different than him.

Just as with the Canaanites, we can also see the means, the motive, and the opportunity to lie about how "God sent a flood to kill people".

But God is Life and has nothing to do with death.

The truth is that by reflecting ungodliness, we contrived the flood, not God.
God not only didn't want to see us flooded, He was also the way to stop it.

But, in our weakness, we blamed Him for what we had invited, and it's been a nauseating nuisance that that lie has managed to stick around for so long.

The petulant ego of the human being, our lying mouths, get us into more trouble than we care to admit...much less ask for help with.

It's interesting that it should be so, don't you think?

Also, I'm fully aware that we might reply "I don't believe in the flood", and that's fine...

...but I'm certain that a few minutes of honest Q+A about our own personal experience would quickly re-install the metaphor and its relevance...minus the confusion or ability for deflection.

Is questioning God blasphemous? Absolutely not.
This process is metaphysically synonymous with the bleating of the lost lamb.

Is lying about God blasphemous? Yes.

Is it possible for ungodly human beings to avoid blaspheming Him? This might be the case.
Is it possible for godly human beings to avoid blaspheming Him? This might be the case, as well.

The question might be asked, "What's the difference between a godly human being and an ungodly one?"

The answer might come as follows:

The other day, and the day before, I lost my temper with someone.
It was ungodly misbehaviour which I regret.
It's led to miserable effects.

The ungodly effects mirrored the ungodly misbehaviour.

Things weren't as miserable as they could have been, but they weren't as good and worthwhile as they ought have been had I reflected more love and given God more power to influence the matter.

Also the other day, and the day before, I did very well and put my very life on the line in loving service of another human being. It's been one sacrifice and concession after another. Time and time again, I've demonstrated a strength that I find rare within this locale. Time and time again, I've ignored the convenient alibi to pseudo-justify and excuse my own misbehaviour, and have, instead, opted to behave myself lovingly instead of unlovingly.

As such, while certain ideas about "us" vs. "the 'others' 'over there' who don't believe as we do and are therefore 'others'" continue to create confusion, division, and all kinds of needless problems...

It becomes clear that in one instance I was misbehaving unlovingly, and in the others I was behaving lovingly.

Toscani, it's not a coincidence that, regardless of what people say that they do/don't believe, many shed tears and proclaim "miracle" upon seeing their first newborn...

...It's also not a coincidence that when that newborn is needlessly taken from them...the word "meaningless" is intuitively, and correctly, used to describe the adjective of what's taken place.

Contrary to popular opinion, 'Christianity' is not a religion and has nothing to do with religion.

The first time that the word "Christian" was uttered on this planet, it was in reference to the people who were in the proximity of Jesus the Christ and who were following His teaching.

So, if Jesus' instruction was to drink a gallon of water every day at noon, then we would know His followers by those who drink a gallon of water every day at noon.

Interestingly enough, if others who'd never met Him or heard of His teaching were to somehow read the glaring and obvious metaphysical writing on the wall and deduce that they should be drinking one cup of water every day at noon, then they, too, regardless of their proximity, belief, or any other happenstance, would be both following Him and also empowering Him to work through their lives.

It doesn't seem to really matter what we say that we believe, what we think that we believe, what our lying and vested mouths have to say about things, or what our parents taught us to believe...

It seems as though the reality that we're experiencing is rooted within a very meaningful framework that can't be ultimately avoided, dodged, ignored, or perverted.

"Love your one another as I love you." - God

This is God's commandment, and to this day, we can't find any other way to provide an environment which we're actually comfortable participating within.

Lastly, to your point about questioning God...I would highlight the most salient and cogent fixture for you to carefully consider:

Right now, there are groups of LGBT members and advocates who march in protest against the mistreatment of them and their loved ones.

Right now, there are groups of pan-Africans and advocates who march in protest against the mistreatment of them and their loved ones.

Due to how those who mistreat both of these groups with unloving misbehaviour do so in Christ's name and have claimed themselves as His ambassadors, the majority of the people in these groups circulate narratives about how they don't need Jesus and they don't need God.

However, when we set aside what our lying mouths have to say about things...we quickly learn that what 100% of the people in those marches are ACTUALLY saying is the following:

"We wish that everyone on this planet was behaving the way that God instructed. We wish that we had been treated lovingly. We wish that we were born into a world where people loved their one another, perfectly. We wish that the spirit of God was behind the eyeballs of those who've mistreated us, instead of ungodly human beings who were misbehaving themselves by mistreating us in ways that they'd never, themselves, want to be treated."

It doesn't matter what their lying mouths are having them say that they believe.

The metaphysical reality of the matter is that their knees are completely bent, and they absolutely, without reserve or any ambiguity, confess Him as 'Wonderful Counselor', 'Mighty God', 'Everlasting Father', and 'Prince of Peace'.

In fact, if this planet were 100% Christian, 100% of the time, there wouldn't be a single protest, anywhere, ever.

It wouldn't happen, but if a group were mistreated unlovingly, then everyone, except that group, would have the issue corrected before the affected group could even make a formal complaint.

There'd be no exploitation of any sort, intentional or unintentional, directly or indirectly, in any way, shape, or form. And if there were residual instances that could be named, they would be at the front of our docket and on their way to being corrected to best effect.

• Tobacco wouldn't be sold for profit.

• For-profit farming would be a thing of the past.

• No litter in the streets.

• No unfair price tags.

• No unfair wages.

• No hunger.

• Nobody looking in the mirror and not liking what they see.

• Nobody looking at their neighbour and not liking what they see.

• Nobody looking at the amount they've hoarded directly/indirectly through unloving misbehaviour, and being proud about it, or anything except ashamed about it, and eager to make corrections.

• No dishonest mechanics or repair technicians.

• No infidelity.

• No theft.

• No violence.

• No dishonest practices.

• No threat from our one another.

• No worries about finding a place within society.

• No worries about finding a meaningful career that contributes to the betterment of our neighbours.

We would have perfect confidence in the trust that we have for our one another.

We would feel uplifted and supported by the mere thought of the existence of our one another, as we uplift and support our one another, likewise.

We would all sleep with two eyes closed where our collective psyche could finally begin to heal itself and stave off the psychoses which is inherent with an ungodly environment and context of life.

Guilt would be replaced by grace.

There is literally no problem, complaint, or discomfort that is currently in existence, that would be able to continue unabated.

It might be argued that accident, disease, and weather would continue to cause discomfort...but the fact of the matter is that none of these are being experienced within an environment and context where human beings behave perfectly loving towards our one another.

We would dream of safety and surety.

We would understand that we are a part of a unified collective, 8 billion deep, who have each others' backs, and who will all swim together instead of continuing to sink individually, while climbing on top of one another like a clumsy, weak, pathetic, self-cannibalistic, carnival-clown, ouroboros, and doing it all in the name of a "survival" that is obviously a complete fiction which was contrived to alibi for our own selfish and vested interests.

Toscani, I'm curious...which locale would you prefer to experience life within?

Which context would you, yourself, prefer to experience life within?
Which environment would you prefer to awaken within as a newborn?

The idea that Christianity is anything but the answer we all want and need, is obviously defunct.
The idea that anything but Christianity is the answer we all want and need, is obviously defunct.

The reality which we find ourselves in, in conjunction with the corner which we've painted ourselves into, unambiguously bares out this fact, and makes it painfully obvious to 100% of us, and it does so without any room for any objection.

Pointing at the ungodly instances where people have come in His name to blaspheme and slander Him...only serves to highlight the ungodly and unloving misbehaviour as the problem, and loving behaviour of our one another as the solution...which is exactly what He said...and Which is exactly What's been in existence since long before we had our humanoid bodies to reflect life, and His meaning with.

@clousems said in #9

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".

This point was very well put and may very well be perfectly applied insight.
The point you've made, here, is probably exactly correct.

@DoomedBishop said in #4

I thought God didn't obey anyone or anything but His own will.

All obeys His will.
This is because He is fundamental to all life.

For us, if we want to go to the cabin, we first go examine the best ones that suits our needs, then we go price shopping, then we buy it. Then, we calculate how much fuel we'll need to get there, along with the food that we need for the weekend, and which activities we should bring with.

For Him, if He wants to go to the cabin, He's already there.
Where there was no cabin, there now is, along with everything that He'd want.

We are analog. He is digital.

We function manually. We manipulate and micromanage our environment from the bottom-up.

He is automatic. His environment forms around Him from the top-down.

"He creates" is a bit of a misperception...because it's more of an inverted process as far as He's concerned.

"We create" is total folly as, at best, we can discover/uncover His Nature, or quasi-destroy our environment. But our ability to "create" is in question.

As I said, obviously, it's a sad and pathetic, wanna-be, ouroboros, carnival-clown-show that we got going on out here. We're like a second place, runner-up, pseudo-carbon-copy, who garners our own admiration as "champion", by allowing our lying mouths to attempt to write the First Place Champion out of existence.

@dstne said in #5

Our perception of the matter is fairly close to what you've described, here.
However, the unabated reality seems to be much different!

For instance, within the presence of '2+2=4', 2+2=5 will feel judged, condemned, inaccurate, a liar, insufficient, non-functional, weak, incorrect, deficient, wanting, deflated, and called out for perpetrating a fraud.

This is not because 2+2=4 is a Name-Caller.

This is because the very Nature of the Truth automatically indicts all that is 'other than'.

Probably, this alludes to what we perceive as "the war in heaven".

I can't be the only one who remembers having a conversation about:

"You don't want to do that, you will kill your own babies." - God

"Pffft. I'll have free choice not to, right?" - ungodliness

"Well, yes, technically that's true. But you have absolutely no idea what it is like to exist outside of My environment and My context. You are failing to consider things that you can't imagine. You will confuse yourself. You will end up calling death 'life' and calling good 'bad'. You will end up calling yourself 'god' and calling Me 'your creation'." - God

"Nuh uh! Obviously I'll know the Truth about everything. You just want to be 'the boss', you just have to sit up on top of your throne while the rest of creation grovels under you and your law. What if I want to eat in front of hungry people? What if I want people without to see all that I have? What if I want to be the best at something and know that others aren't as good? Why is this a problem? Why can't cooperation be supplanted with competition? Why can't inherent abundance be replaced with manufactured scarcity? Think how fun it would be! We can destroy blood diamonds to ensure that they keep their value on the market! We can lie about our inherent unity and pretend to divide ourselves and compete!" - ungodliness

"I am perfect Love and anything except me is selfishness; I am perfect Truth, and anything except me is untruth. I am perfect Life and anything except Me is ultimate death. I am perfect Innocence, and anything except me is guilty. It's not My decree. It's not 'Me doing this to you'. It's not even My judgment against you. It is just My Nature! I am Life, and anything but me, is, by definition, not. You will die! It's just my Nature. Life belongs with Me. Attempting to separate life from Me is unconscionable for you. Why won't you believe me?"

"I don't believe you because I'm my own person and I deserve to pretend to be the creator that You actually Are. I'm sick of playing second fiddle. I'm bored with You." - ungodliness

"But you don't understand what's going on, here..."- God

"Pfffft. I don't even know what you're talking about. Always with the riddles! Always with the metaphors! Just tell me straight up. No more games. Yes or no. I will have the ability to choose not to kill my own children. Yes or no." - ungodliness

"Technically, yes, but you don't understand..." - God

This was probably the last words before we slammed the door on His locale, creating a 'big-bang', where we would wake up within this perverted mish-mash and debacle where we've mixed ungodliness with life...where we've attempted to separate (perfect) Life from (perfect) Love...to argue about what it is that we are here to do...as though it is a matter of dynamic and subjective belief...when the truth is...we are alive in order to express and experience Love...all of the time...in every way possible...with no exceptions.

If this picture isn't clear enough...

Consider the most perfect Wife who always has Her husband's actual wants and actual needs in mind.

Consider that Her love is without flaw, and that She slaves at the stove all day long...after visiting the market to get all of the many ingredients that Her husband loves the most...and consider that She cheerily hums and sings to Herself, thinking only of Her husband...and excitedly awaiting the arrival of Her only love to finally arrive Home...where She can provide him the perfect dinner, the exact way that he likes it.

Now, imagine that when the husband finally gets home...he curses at Her for cooking the meal wrong, and for accusing Her for not doing things the way that he prefers. But the whole meanwhile, the truth is that She did exactly as he preferred, and paid attention right down to the smallest detail just so that he would have the exact meal that he most cherished.

Incensed and unable to listen to reason...imagine that he slaps Her across the face...screaming at Her...while She recoils in the corner and sobs about how She wishes that he'd just listen to Her and stop yelling and screaming all of the time...and pleading for him to please just calm down...and not understanding why he can't just sit and have a lovely meal with his perfectly Loving, Truthful, and Innocent Wife.

We don't usually tend to consciously know it or acknowledge it...but when we curse "Jesus Christ!"...it's worse than an unimaginably horrific instance of Child abuse...

...and the exact same can be said when we misbehave unlovingly/ungodly towards our one another.

If you've ever watched 'To Catch a Predator', you'll see how they all claim "it wasn't me", and how they all of a sudden are locked into a face-to-face encounter with the truth and reality of what they did...and where the lying mouth that had so much to say in the illicit texts...just suddenly disappears into thin air...as though it never existed...while the person is left holding the bag...alongside the realization that it wasn't actually them.

It's very much the same thing.

If we understood the perfect Nature of God...and saw what our lying mouths have falsely and needlessly saddled Him with...it's even odds if we'd ever want to eat another bite of food or be capable of getting so much as a minute of good sleep.

As for Jesus the Christ, He is probably God in the flesh.

Most people who die and meet God, have to look back 2000 years to find a human being Who reminds them of the Spirit and perfect Love that they met when they exited this locale.

Also, it probably wasn't a punishment.

Probably, just as an ungodly and lying mouth argued with Him in the desert, and concerning Job, etc., so it is probably the case that our lying mouth would claim that we were 'willing captives'.

It needed only cite our ungodliness (mistreatment/misbehaviour/bias towards selfishness instead of love/imperfect love) to argue that we are where we've chosen to be. (Of course, it omits its own lying and ungodly influence.)

This is the point that @xDoubledragon was alluding to.

Our lying mouths probably argued that "life can't leave this locale because life doesn't want to leave this locale"...and that..."life is getting exactly what it deserves...err...I mean...wants".

However...once our lying mouth spilled Innocent Blood...it then incurred a debt that it can never repay.

At that point, ungodliness defaulted on this locale was forced to concede that all is owed to the God of both Heaven and this earth, the Author of Life.

Probably, the same life which is reflecting through me, is the same one that is reflecting through you.

Therefore, as Jesus became one of us and then returned to Heaven, He took our spirit with Him where we, now, currently live.

But this wouldn't have been possible if we weren't first born.

And, it wouldn't have been possible if we couldn't first find ourselves bleating like a lost lamb.

It makes very good sense that dogs be trained in regards to Who the Leader of the Pack Is and Who knows best...it's how they're best kept safe.

And it makes very good sense that we learn the very same.

The flawless meaning and the metaphor probably isn't a coincidence.

All is well that ends well...but in the meantime...it makes very good sense that we wouldn't be the kind of people who would scare away Someone more innocent than our own newborns.

It makes very good sense that we admit what's transpired, what we've learned, and it would make very good sense to let the cookie go so that we can remove our hand from the cookie-jar.

Not out of tit-for-tat grace...
Not out of transaction...

But simply out of our own will to finally correct, and allow corrected, what we've made incorrect.

I've heard that when people who've been running from their crimes are finally caught, that they express a kind of 'relief' and a kind of 'joy' that they no longer have to concern themselves with their impending doom. I suppose that it's somewhat similar.

No, God doesn't send people to hell.

He's simply allowed us to experience it for a short amount of time if that's what we think that we want.

It's easy to see why our pseudo-creation, and our heinous precedent and protocol of ungodliness can't be possible in heaven...and...apparently...that's the exact concession that He was hoping to hear from us.

"Love your one another. Repent and turn from your unloving mistreatment of your one another, and your idolic and convenient alibis/excuses for your unloving misbehaviour...and the pain that you experience in doing so...will cause me to hear you calling Me as a bleating lamb...and I will save you like a Good Shepard." - God (paraphrased)

Anyway, other than that, dstne, it seems as though you're on the right track.

And, regardless, none of this is a matter of textual ideation or expressed belief.

All of this is metaphysical and total.

We can't duck Him.

If we're to find Him, we will.

And He wants nothing more that to be seen and vindicated from being falsely accused for things that He is not, by someone who is the things that they're accusing Him of.

He wants nothing more than to hear us say, "We're sorry. We were wrong. Can you please help us? We've gotten ourselves into very deep trouble, here, and we can't really imagine existing in a context where You are not perfectly fundamental to all."

But a painful amount of honesty, and a genuine will, might be necessary...lest we follow our lying mouths to look for "Him" everywhere but where He actually is.

The idea that we can just say, "Catholic priests" and continue on with ungodly misbehaviour, while pretending to seek Him, is probably not something that we'd be willing to do if we actually knew Him.

It's how we've become accustomed to treating our one another and our projections of "Him"...but when faced with mistreating Him? Yeah, no.

Like I said...no food...no sleep...and ultimately...no life.

@MircallaLives said at #8

Imagine that you're riding shotgun with a loved one...

And someone listening to their lying mouth decides that they want your friend's car and therefore drill a hole in their head, open the door and dump them out, as they shoot you in the hip to help expedite your vacating of the vehicle...

You would celebrate the unloving misbehaviour, would you?

You would smile, give them an appreciative nod, tell them "well done", while holding your hip and bleeding profusely?

You'd be laughing while giving your statement and recounting the events?

You'd show up at your friends funeral, say, "Praise ungodliness and unloving misbehaviour," to their family members?

I somehow doubt it.

I find it boring that you feign to exhalt the most sickest and ungodly mistreatment of human beings.

And I find it boring that you to feign as though you can't wait to find your child missing from its crib so that you can praise the pseudo-existence of ungodly misbehaviour, in person, up close and personal.

You can't say both, "child abuse is heinous" and "child abuse is great" at the same time.
And you also can't possibly rewrite or otherwise disavow the ungodly and unloving source of it.

In conclusion...

If it's not Love, then it's total garbage...

And shame on us for trying to allow our lying mouths to teach us anything different.

Finally, for those of us attempting to argue against the objective existence of Love, or Its fundamental underpinning as pertains to all life...

For those of us who say: "Problem of complexity! Problem of complexity! A good orator whom I enjoyed listening to and whom I thought was quite intelligent once said something about 'problem of complexity!"

I'd like to point out that Information, Itself, does not need and can't possibly have a catalyst.

Everything that we could imagine to point at and say, "There, see that? That's what made Information Itself," would also require informative properties about itself.

The problem of complexity is completely defunct, and I'm honestly amazed that we're still accepting insight from people who consider God to be synonymous with 'a thing' and/or compatible with our own obvious projections and reflections that we place in His stead.

For those of us who say: "There were stories that mimicked Jesus before 0 A.D."

I'd like to point out that it makes perfect sense that His arrival has been forefront in our deep psyches since before we learned language. There is no doubt that He should and would be reflected in our story telling, in our imaginations, in our intuitions, and all through every meaningful interaction and meaningful insight which we're capable of.

For those of us who say: "Christianity preaches slavery." the oldest sect of practicing Christians on this planet, are the Ethiopians.

Ethiopia is the most mentioned landmass in the Bible, and following God has nothing to do with the bastardized understanding disseminated by those who've come in His name and who've done all that they can to destroy His Nature and His message to us.

To crack a whip on someone's back is to treat our one another unlovingly.

Who cares what the vision of the ancient Hebrew was?
Who cares what the vision of vested beneficiaries is?
Who cares about the fictional, pathetic, and ineffective postulates and projections which we've designated as "god"?

God commanded that we love our one another...and it's been proven that he wasn't joking or offering us superfluous or subjective advice that we could live without.

And it turns out that we're not punished for our unloving actions and delusions of division...but that we are punished by our unloving actions and delusions of division.

I will gladly consider and accept claims that the above paragraph(s) are inaccurate in regards to the obvious and immutable reality which encompasses us...but I'll only take them seriously when voiced by those of us who are at the receiving end of a 2 ton bomb, knife-edge, or gunshot.

For those of us who say: "Miracles don't exist. They are physically impossible. It's just wishful thinking in combination with the God of the gaps. Science explains everything."

Decades ago, Stephen Hawking beautifully summed up my understanding when he said:

"I fail to see why there should be anything more than nothing."

This is an extremely important point!

At it's epitome, science is the communication between 'the Information' and our knowledge.

And it's no secret that it can't account for its own existence, much less those who observe and practice it.

This is important because it kicks open the door for the 'Cart Before Horse', or 'Begging the Question' fallacy, to effectively mute and truncate so much that is said about reality by those of us who claim to be experts in the matter.

We have a petulant tendency to proclaim 'the Information' where only our knowledge exists...and we have a tendency to feign "ignorance" and "a lack of knowledge" in the face of 'the Information'.

Again, all of this is bore out in the first half of this synopsis, as pertains to 'our lying mouths' which speak against our own best interest, and the ungodly influences which contrived its pseudo-existence in the first place.

It's been irritating watching the point be misappropriated by popular mouthpieces with large platforms...

But to make it plain...

An atom is scientifically impossible.

Science says that it shouldn't exist and is completely clueless in regards to the epitome and totality of existence.

And when it comes to our ability to perceive an atom...there are simply no words.

We're already WAAAY past "impossible" and we're WAAAY past "miracle".

It's interesting to watch human beings allow our complacent and lying mouths to proclaim that "miracles are impossible".

We've already been proven wrong...and the ability for us to feign ignorance of the Truth is merely one such exhibit.

For those of us who say: "We like to use shapes and numbers to proudly boast about and signify our ungodliness...where we designate quasi-meaning from the bottom-up...and celebrate our own ungodly pseudo-intelligence and (lack of) competency and (lack of) accomplishment...much like a toddler who errantly repeats punchlines while expecting the adults to laugh...while mocking the Love from which our life stems...pretending to condemn the most heinous things with our mouths, while enabling and enacting them with our hands...be it the abusive priest...or someone from Crowley's camp...while praising the ability and "freedom" to do so..."

I say to all of our graffiti and finger-painted scribblings of triangles, numbers, and eyeballs the following...

'Even the phases of the moon testify the stone moved from the tomb.'

Our pseudo and wanna-be postulates have nothing on the Real Deal.

Again...it's obvious that every knee is effectively bent only towards God...and this fact cannot be denied.

• The idea that Life can't evacuate Itself from this locale, is not off of the table.

• The idea that the limits of our knowledge dictate when and where life can arise is obviously completely off of the table.

• The idea that we can't wake up within a peculiar environment, is obviously total folly as it's already happened to 100% of the people who've been born within this locale.

The argument that we're here to do anything except express and experience perfect Love, for and from our one another, is obvious complete folly as bore out by the protests of anyone whose watched their loved one get stabbed in the neck or licked in the head with a claw hammer.

100% of us proclaim, 100% of the time, that we desire, prefer, want, and, indeed, require a perfectly loving environment and a perfectly loving context to exist within.

This is without exception, and it doesn't matter what we call it.
This is without exception, and it doesn't matter what our lying mouths are comfortable admitting.

The Truth has dominion over our reality, and we should thank our lucky stars that the Truth belongs to the camp of perfect Love, Truth, Life, and Innocence.

There is one Religion within this universal locale, and it is called 'Love'.

It is much more of a Meaning, or even Meaning Itself, than it is 'a thing'...and it's been (not so) easily cast aside and flippantly dismissed by our lying mouths.

It's not a mystery that It communicates in metaphor and meaning.
It's not a mystery because, obviously, Meaning, Itself, existed before we were here to acknowledge it.

I asked Chat GPT the following question:

Could you please group the following words by sort?
love truth life innocence selfishness lies death guilt

Here were the results:

Sure! Here’s a grouping of the words based on their themes:
Positive Concepts
Love
Truth
Life
Innocence
Negative Concepts
Selfishness
Lies
Death
Guilt
Let me know if you need anything else!

Why did you group these words in this way?

I grouped the words based on their inherent meanings and emotional connotations:
Positive Concepts
Love: Represents affection and connection.
Truth: Signifies honesty and integrity.
Life: Indicates existence and vitality.
Innocence: Conveys purity and naivety.
Negative Concepts
Selfishness: Implies a lack of consideration for others.
Lies: Represents deceit and dishonesty.
Death: Associated with loss and the end of life.
Guilt: Reflects feelings of remorse and regret.
The grouping highlights contrasting themes, with the first set embodying positive values and ideals, while the second set relates to moral or existential challenges. If you’re looking for a different perspective or additional analysis, feel free to ask!

And as with GPT, I'm always available for the time being!
If anyone has anything else that they want to know about God, just feel free to ask!

@salmon_rushdie said in #52:

We are god so we signed up for this...

Yes and no.

We are alive and therefore share His DNA.

The impact and severity of this 'matter of God' is barely illustrated by the totality of this entire universal locale and everything here within.

But if we were God, we wouldn't find examples of unloving and ungodly mistreatment, nor would there be a deadly precedent and protocol within this locale.

Knowing that we exist isn't proof that we're our Heavenly Father.

@Resurrection_of_Abel said in #57:

Yes and no.

We are alive and therefore share His DNA.

The impact and severity of this 'matter of God' is barely illustrated by the totality of this entire universal locale and everything here within.

But if we were God, we wouldn't find examples of unloving and ungodly mistreatment, nor would there be a deadly precedent and protocol within this locale.

Knowing that we exist isn't proof that we're our Heavenly Father.
Just because we lack the awareness of the totality doesn't mean that we aren't it - a piece of it.

And thus, having been created by said source - and of that source - the source itself gives blessing to its own existence no? What can exist outside of it? Nothing.

@salmon_rushdie said in #58:

Just because we lack the awareness of the totality doesn't mean that we aren't it - a piece of it.

And thus, having been created by said source - and of that source - the source itself gives blessing to its own existence no? What can exist outside of it? Nothing.

Some of what you've said, here, has some merit.

But there are enough salient and cogent caveats to show and understand that the opposite is true of the idea which you're intending.

Most glaring, would be your lack of enthusiasm, and your lack of gratefulness, towards someone mistreating you in unloving/ungodly ways.

The idea that you would thank them for contributing to an evening of needless misery, where you could sate their selfishness, is a falsehood.

What you're claiming doesn't actually meet with reality.

Right now, there are marriage beds that are no longer the same due to infidelity.
The meaning of the union has been brought into question due to someone enabling and following their lying mouth.

And, effectively, someone has mistreated their spouse and chose selfishness instead of the love that brought them together.

Right now, there are marriage beds that were tested, but have maintained their integrity and fidelity.
The meaning of the union has not been brought into question, because someone chose to follow God.

And, effectively, someone has loved their spouse and chose love instead of selfishness.

These - are - not - the - same - thing.

Like everything else within this locale, they reflect the mixing of life and death.

And while this appears to be 'what is' within this locale, it does not appear to be 'all that is', in total.

The idea that there isn't a locale where love is fundamental and total, isn't in keeping with what we've observed, here.

However, the idea that both theism and panentheism are both true at the same time, is in keeping with what you've observed within your reply.

There are not 8 billion separate realities on this planet.
There is one.

There are not 8 billion different instances of life, each of them magically produced by a separate star cluster.
There is one.

As far as we're concerned, the distinction and division between our one another, between the whip-cracker and the whip-welted, is non-existent.

However, the same can't be said between us and our Father in Heaven.
Just because we share DNA with our Father, doesn't make us Him nor does it prove that 'we are Him and He is us'.

Within this myopic universal locale, both of the dots on the ying-yang are quasi-true.
Within the totality of reality, one of the dots is a lie and doesn't actually exist.

Interestingly, you said that "apart from Him is nothing" and this is probably true.
So, the ends of this pseudo-god locale, of this ungodly locale, are probably fairly clear.

Unlike most of what I've said, I can't vouch for the pinpoint accuracy of what I'm about to say, here...I'm just spitballing...

...but perhaps it's called "hell" because God so badly wanted to see life return to Him where we could live with Him forever, instead of Him having to miss us because we chose to cling to a turd being flushed down the drain into non-existence when God withdraws from this locale.

Or, perhaps it's called "hell" because we've failed to realize God's intention for our lives.

Or, perhaps its called "hell" because the slightest instance of unloving misbehaviour, 200,000 years ago, has led to us killing our babies, and making excuses about 'how we had no other choice', here, today.

The idea that anyone on this planet is experiencing heaven right now, is folly...because everyone on this planet wishes to see everyone else fed.

The idea that anyone on this planet is experiencing heaven right now, is folly...because everyone on this planet wishes to never see another human being experience war again.

And yes, I include those whose lying mouths have convinced them to manufacture and sell the arms.
And yes, I include those whose lying mouths have convinced them to be mercenaries for hire.

They, themselves, are glad, when looking through the eyes of the victims of their lying mouths...at the idea that of there being no more war...and their victims are glad that they no longer engage with it, too.

Everyone is happy.

Can you see the difference between Heaven and hell?

It's loving empathy vs. selfish mistreatment.

One single blemish is the difference...much less this debacle that we've set up for ourselves and have so far failed to convince ourselves is "normal", "good", "what we deserve...er...I mean want for ourselves", "possible", "strong", "capable of surviving", etc.

There is a reason that infidelity spoils the feel of the marriage bed.

It's not an inconvenient hiccup within our psyche that we need only learn to focus on our breathing to get around a spoiled marriage bed...or where we can realize that it's actually not a bad thing that we've hurt our spouse...and that...if we REALLY (don't) think about it...it's really only our crazy ideas about how it wouldn't have been diminished had we not chosen selfishness, that's bugging us...and that we acted "naturally" and served "our nature"....and...really...we need only accept and embrace our willingness to be weak, pathetic, deadly, and selfish, so that we can enjoy our own dying and crying...and this is the "correct" and "accurate" order of things.

It's truly miserable to see what our lying mouths have dragged us into believing these days!
It's really not easy to look at.

@Resurrection_of_Abel

Well, that is an opinion - and a state of mind you describe. More common to most than not but it is not innately a confining feature of reality - it takes a lot of shifts of perspective, wisdom and acceptance to see the paths in which our negative experiences consciously become our deepest lessons - and many times our glimpses into the deeper unknowable states of reality, that cannot so well be understood in our current form - and yet the glimmer of that understanding beckons us forward, with but a taste of what the full realization contains. That beyond our current limitations and form. I am - however - grateful for those who test my reality, who shake things up and bring me back to myself - help me realign, and in the deepest moments of pain - take me out of my focus on mundane reality, and force me to see the bigger picture.